Recent Topics
Looking for Fram Ultra XG30 and XG5 cut open
by rubberchicken. 12/12/18 10:27 PM
92 f150 332 code
by ram_man. 12/12/18 10:05 PM
Mixing brands of brake fluid / gear lube
by SureshR. 12/12/18 09:26 PM
45,000 miles in the Caprice.
by ls1mike. 12/12/18 09:21 PM
Quality oils?
by Horsehaulin. 12/12/18 09:16 PM
Exhaust fumes in cabin
by Skater4life27. 12/12/18 08:40 PM
Squeaky sunroof
by dishdude. 12/12/18 08:09 PM
Liqui Moly Top Tec 1800
by Chuckh. 12/12/18 07:56 PM
2006 Pathfinder Transmission Shudder
by Bluestream. 12/12/18 07:10 PM
Maybe E-10 is better? - PentaStar (Flex Fuel)
by StevieC. 12/12/18 06:52 PM
Shipping cost
by Fitter30. 12/12/18 06:45 PM
Purolator P1 14476 CUT OPEN
by 53' Stude. 12/12/18 06:00 PM
Which car to buy?
by jrcowboys. 12/12/18 04:55 PM
New Tire Cracking
by robd. 12/12/18 04:43 PM
SAR B6P - Thoughts?
by 28oz. 12/12/18 03:59 PM
Time to sell the 1-ton Dually
by 02SE. 12/12/18 03:55 PM
Shell Rotella Grease
by WMW0505. 12/12/18 02:27 PM
Need to add attic ladder in stairwell
by Klutch9. 12/12/18 12:51 PM
Newest Members
Horsehaulin, JLew, bmrk1100, Rrrracer, jefe_de_estado
66664 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
19 registered members (2015Corolla, Aero540T, Char Baby, bbhero, Bailes1992, anndel, 1 invisible), 820 guests, and 37 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,007
Posts4,925,889
Members66,664
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Tesla big battery saves the day - #4608530
12/19/17 05:32 PM
12/19/17 05:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,535
'Stralia
Shannow Online content OP
Shannow  Online Content OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,535
'Stralia
Well according to certain parties.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-bat...ng-trips-70003/

Note the use of language, the scaling of outputs between the units, and the chart showing the grid frequency during the event.

Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4608542
12/19/17 05:44 PM
12/19/17 05:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 87
VA
thastinger Offline
thastinger  Offline
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 87
VA
There is no physical difference in the 7.5Kwh wall battery and the 10Kwh battery, both use the same type and number of LiFePo4 batteries, the difference is in the DoD to get to the rated power output and the warranty of doing so. Distributed grid (which is what this is) will work but only in certain climates and latitudes.

Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4608633
12/19/17 07:05 PM
12/19/17 07:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,557
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,557
Toronto
The inverter controller in the Big Battery is acting like a combo of capacitor and UPS to the grid system yea?


Scambling for solutions is a hopelessly futile endeavour and potentially dangerous, without first coming to a solid, personal understanding of the problem. Beware riding the ideological hobby horse.
Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4608704
12/19/17 08:02 PM
12/19/17 08:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,021
Canuck living in California
KrisZ Offline
KrisZ  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,021
Canuck living in California
I found this bit interesting:
Quote:
The details of that contract are not released, but it wouldn’t surprise if that contract allowed, or even encouraged, such intervention – just to rub in the message about a cleaner, faster, smarter grid to the technology dinosaurs in the eastern states.


Californa's power providers were purposefully running blackouts in the 80's (I believe) to get the changes they wanted to be approved by people. To this day Californians are happy to pay some of the highest energy rates in US.


2015 Dodge Grand Caravan-27k miles.
2006 Mazda 3-163k miles
Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4608906
12/20/17 12:07 AM
12/20/17 12:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,884
Central Washington
Colt45ws Offline
Colt45ws  Offline
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,884
Central Washington
Did the 8MW it put out really help avoid disaster or did it just raise the Frequency .05.
Thats barely over 1% of the lost capacity. If this was really a catastrophic event I doubt thats enough to really save them from a cascading failure.


-Colton
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI 207k, Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42
Down for engine swap
2003 Ford Crown Vic PI 75k
Castrol EDGE HM 5W30, Fram XG2
Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Colt45ws] #4608935
12/20/17 03:32 AM
12/20/17 03:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,535
'Stralia
Shannow Online content OP
Shannow  Online Content OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,535
'Stralia
As per the article, the plant that tripped was in another state, Victoria, 600 miles away (+) from the battery. Energy USUALLY flows from Victoria to South Australia

The unit that they blamed for slow response was two states further away, an additional 1,000 miles.

So being middle of the night, there would have been a connected grid of 15,000MW of supply/demand, and I'm not sure that LY3 was likely at full load at that time of the night...looks like they used "available" capacity...in fact I'm sure...the Units are rated at 52MW, and registered at greater.

Anyway, 560 (if it was that, and it wasn't) was about 5% of the grid at the time...8MW injected in SA was 0.05%, so consider how it contributed.

At the time, there would have been 20 or there abouts thermal units running, with 200 tonnes per unit spinning at 3,000RPM...that's what they refer to as Inertia in the grid, 4,000 tonnes of spinning metal...decelerating them means that they pump more into the grid immediately, before their governor kicks in virtually instantaneously...that's the 6 second response that they refer to...then there's 60 second and 6 minute contracts that had to be met.

When frequency drops, every motor driven load on the grid drops load as well, as it's operating speed has dropped also...burns out fridge motors ultimately.

So nope, it did little to nothing...but we have no ideas of the secret contracts, nor payments that South Oz is grandstanding about after they blacked out the other year.

The guys who model the markets are concerned at how these things work, as they have no inertia, and claim that they can respond in 1/3 of a cycle...the real risk is that they respond en masse (when there's enough of them), and the grid oscillated uncontrollably.

Not buggy whip fears, just usual cart horse inversion by idealogues, who like the author in the link use facts loosely to create a sensational argument that's factually iffy.

Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4609008
12/20/17 06:27 AM
12/20/17 06:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,196
Sunny Florida
SteveSRT8 Offline
SteveSRT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,196
Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Not buggy whip fears, just usual cart horse inversion by idealogues, who like the author in the link use facts loosely to create a sensational argument that's factually iffy.


Yeah, .05% is a HUGE NUMBER! WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!


"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix
Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4609438
12/20/17 03:34 PM
12/20/17 03:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,563
Silicon Valley
PandaBear Offline
PandaBear  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,563
Silicon Valley
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The guys who model the markets are concerned at how these things work, as they have no inertia, and claim that they can respond in 1/3 of a cycle...the real risk is that they respond en masse (when there's enough of them), and the grid oscillated uncontrollably.


From the motor controllers power supply I've used before, I see that the power output would have to be tied together with only 1 controller and N-1 booster to avoid such scenarios. This is easy if everything is 3cm apart, much harder to do on a real grid.


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4610916
12/22/17 06:40 AM
12/22/17 06:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 683
Perth, Western Australia
Brad_C Offline
Brad_C  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 683
Perth, Western Australia
Wouldn't this have all been a moot point if they hadn't removed tonnes of rotating machinery from the grid in the first place?

So the battery is really only "saving" the State Government from another red face rather than adding anything they wouldn't have had if the incumbent hadn't slashed the amount of rotational inertia?

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Brad_C] #4610996
12/22/17 08:52 AM
12/22/17 08:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,917
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,917
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Brad_C
Wouldn't this have all been a moot point if they hadn't removed tonnes of rotating machinery from the grid in the first place?

So the battery is really only "saving" the State Government from another red face rather than adding anything they wouldn't have had if the incumbent hadn't slashed the amount of rotational inertia?

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?


That was pretty much my question as well.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4611141
12/22/17 11:14 AM
12/22/17 11:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,812
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
andyd  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,812
Marshfield , MA
Shannow, please give me (us) your assessment of the battery. Did its fast reaction stave off a cycle drop resulting in a brown out or mitigate a situation? I only sort of understand the way power grids are managed. For the 11yrs I spent at the ship yard, It looked out over a tank farm , a draw bridge, a power plant that converted from coal to oil de-commissioned, and a soap plant. A little pocket of heavy industry. Solar and wind or other power intrigues me, I also see how France uses nukes that are very well managed. Is this more smoke and mirrors from Elon Musk or what?


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: Tesla big battery saves the day - [Re: Shannow] #4622105
01/02/18 07:12 PM
01/02/18 07:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,535
'Stralia
Shannow Online content OP
Shannow  Online Content OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,535
'Stralia
andyd, computer resources were limited, being on a portable device while on the cruise

Family ducked down the street for 5 minutes...2 hours ago, so did some digging...the data is publicly available http://www.nemweb.com.au/REPORTS/ARCHIVE/Dispatch_SCADA/ that's the dispatch data from the market operator.

reneweconomy have updated their article...
Quote:
Update: We just realised that a paragraph explaining the timings of the Tesla intervention went missing in the transfer from one document to another.

To be clear, on the timing of the response of this generators, some did some minor adjustments (1MW) as part of regulation FCAS, the moment they dropped below 50Hz.


Here's the facts...and I've only included a handfull of generators, the station within spitting distance of the units that tripped, and mine, 500 miles or therabouts away...

Quote:

Unit 02:00 02:05
LYA3 559MW 0MW (so yes, it was at full noise before tripping)

YW1 249MW 256MW
YW2 338MW 352MW
YW3 382MW 394MW (into reserve capacity margin...governor drives it, so no issues)
YW4 382MW 392MW (same as above)

MP1 414MW 460MW (can do 700, was turned down overnight at the time of the trip)


Rest of the connected generators all did similarly...that's how their governors respond to frequency in the short term, and the controls and firing in the longer.

So far from "only 1MW minor adjustments" claimed by the "napping" generators, all of whom did the heavy lifting to get the frequency back up.

AEMO try to keep a full two units worth of generation up their sleeve at any one time (N-2 contingency).

Grid wasn't at risk really.


BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™