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#4604432 - 12/15/17 12:15 PM The Great Generational Divide
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1291
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
These DI oil threads have me thinking this:

There, in the last 6-7 years, has been a massive increase in the production and sales of vehicles with Gasoline Fueled Direct Injection engines. This will continue to increase.

There are three issues, in general, with these engines. These are issues that, in general, did not apply to non DI engines for the previous 20 years.

1. Soot- DI engines produce soot, much like a diesel. This soot goes out the exhaust, which means the probable advent of GPF. However, for our purposes, soot also becomes entrained in the oil. The main drawback to these particles being in the oil, is that it greatly increases timing chain wear. Seems to apply to all DI engines.

2. LSPI- Real issue. Seems to affect some engine designs more than other.

3. Fuel Dilution- Real issue. Seems, again, to depend on engine design, and driving conditions.

So, for the previous generation of engines, a "conventional wisdom" grew up, of "extended" oil changes, "synthetic" oil is better than "conventional" oil, tribologic film, etc. For the previous generation of engines, this probably worked pretty well. If you have a previous generation engine, keep on keepin' on sailing

If you have a new DI engine,it is a whole new game, because of the three previously mentioned issues.

"Extended" oil changes on DI are not good. Soot accumulation and fuel dilution rule this out. You say your UOA wear levels are good? Does a UOA measure how soot levels are affecting your timing chain?
Tribologic film, you say? The fuel dilution literally changes your oil. It is not the same oil as when it was new. Fuel dilution(particularly ethanol blended gasoline) reduces(or eliminates) your boundary layer lubrication. It also reduces your viscosity, and essentially your oil becomes a oil/gasoline/ethanol blend. So, if you're saving your tribologic film for your next oil change, forget it. You don't want that one.

There is some evidence that the more used your oil is(as opposed to new or newer oil), that influences LSPI negatively. Thin oil, you say? There is some evidence that lower viscosity affects LSPI negatively. Synthetic oil, you say? There is some evidence for Group I-IV oils, the higher the Group, the more LSPI. These three are all secondary, or tertiary, but still evident.

One overwhelming fact in the evidence, so far, is that the detergent metal Calcium, in commonly used compounds, greatly increases the incident of LSPI, particularly above 1500 ppm. The addition of a detergent Sodium metal compound(again, any commonly used compound) to the Calcium, greatly increases LSPI incidents. Detergent Magnesium metal compounds are LSPI neutral. Molybdenum compounds DECREASE LSPI incidents.

The auto manufacturers are pushing SAE and ILSAC hard to come out with new standards, fast, that they can back spec to the earlier DI engines. This is probably so they won't have to come out and say the oil you are running now, in your DI, is not the best. If you think this is some kind of money grab by some entity in the industry, then you will probably continue to think that. These new standards are to address the above issues. So, the advice of "Just follow what the owner's manual says", may not always be the best advice, for a DI engine user.

The point to this?
If you have a previous generation engine and want to provide advice to someone with a previous generation engine, go for it. But your advice for a previous generation engine, provided to a DI engine user, is coming from a place of misplaced wisdom.
There are probably tens(hundreds?)of millions of DI engine users that know and care nothing about any of this, get their oil changed irregularly, or not at all, and live their lives. If you care about what you drive, like probably most of us on here, I am just throwing this out there. If you want to argue with me, don't. I am not going to.

getdown


Edited by bigj_16 (12/15/17 12:28 PM)

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#4604433 - 12/15/17 12:19 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4648
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
I thought for a moment this was about human generations.

The Mazda is our first DI engine and thanks to the information I have gleaned from here, I am going to use dexos 1 gen 2 oils. I donít have a turbo but the benefits are clear to me. Why not use the latest formulations in these new engines?
_________________________
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Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
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#4604439 - 12/15/17 12:27 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
Virtus_Probi Offline


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 4068
Loc: New England
One thing I would add to the very good OP is that I believe higher ZDDP concentrations can also help limit LSPI events...hard for formulators to use this to fight LSPI due to numerous standards geared towards cat protection, of course.

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition
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#4604441 - 12/15/17 12:28 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8999
Loc: Southeast Florida
Very nice post, OP.

...and to your point on some of this:



_________________________
17 Sonata Sport 2.4L
NAPA Full Synthetic 5w20 | OEM

13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T
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#4604446 - 12/15/17 12:31 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: Virtus_Probi]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1291
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
One thing I would add to the very good OP is that I believe higher ZDDP concentrations can also help limit LSPI events...hard for formulators to use this to fight LSPI due to numerous standards geared towards cat protection, of course.

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

You are right. ZDP does lower LSPI incident, but has other issues. It looks like the New Amsoil Signature D1G2 really pushed the limits in every additive category, going just to where they could, without causing any harm. Of course, it is still expensive. smile

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#4604447 - 12/15/17 12:31 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8999
Loc: Southeast Florida
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
One thing I would add to the very good OP is that I believe higher ZDDP concentrations can also help limit LSPI events...hard for formulators to use this to fight LSPI due to numerous standards geared towards cat protection, of course.

http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/nov-2016/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition

You are right. ZDP does lower LSPI incident, but has other issues. It looks like the New Amsoil Signature D1G2 really pushed the limits in every additive category, going just to where they could, without causing any harm. Of course, it is still expensive. smile


+1
_________________________
17 Sonata Sport 2.4L
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13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T
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#4604450 - 12/15/17 12:34 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 953
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
Having grown up in the 80's, I thought by now we would have had flying hydrogen powered vehicles. Instead, we still have combustion powered vehicles, with rubber tires.

God bless the Corporations. They run our Country!

I grew up as an optimist and Eureka!



Respectfully,

Pajero!
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#4604458 - 12/15/17 12:40 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1291
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
I forgot something. There is also some evidence that gasoline diluted oil plays into LSPI. This is because an oil/gasoline mixture is PROBABLY the fuel that lights off in the combustion chamber to cause LSPI(ignited by Calcium metal particles still glowing). Now in this mixture,the gasoline part is mainly from the injectors, but diluting the oil even further through the crankcase dilution, can add to the ignition propensity.

banana


Edited by bigj_16 (12/15/17 12:44 PM)

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#4604467 - 12/15/17 12:48 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: Pajero]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4648
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: Pajero
Having grown up in the 80's, I thought by now we would have had flying hydrogen powered vehicles. Instead, we still have combustion powered vehicles, with rubber tires.

God bless the Corporations. They run our Country!

I grew up as an optimist and Eureka!



Respectfully,

Pajero!




Hey, I grew up in the Sixties and watched the Jetsons on black and white television. Change is much slower and probably for a good reason.
_________________________
2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter


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#4604472 - 12/15/17 12:52 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
Danh Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: .
Imho, this is THE lubrication issue of the day and second place isn't even close. This is a radical change from the world we've been living in since the era of carburetors, yet it gets little attention outside of forums like this.

Little useful information comes from the OEMs or lubricant manufacturers. Consumer Reports or one of the auto mags would provide a real service if they would explore the issue more fully, maybe including a UOA as part of their testing methodology.

Reasonable questions I'd like to see answered include:

1) Why do some makes seem to deal with DI/LSPI issues better than others?
2) What are the real reasons for fuel dilution? Is it to prevent LSPI? Is it a response to other engine knock? Is it inevitable as excess fuel has to be in the combustion chamber to cool the charge enough for the relatively high compression ratio?
3) At what level of contamination does fuel dilution really matter? At what point do increasing sump levels matter?
4) Will introduction of Dexos1/Gen2, SN+, GF6 allow OEMs to tune engines differently and alleviate some of these problems? If so, once these lubricants have saturated the market will OEMs reflash earlier models to achieve the same results?
5) Are extended OCIs really appropriate for these engines?
6) What can owners do?
7) How does an owner know if their example has a problem or is typical?

It sure seems to me most automakers are putting out compromised products in response to worldwide fuel economy and emission standards. A candid discussion including people with resources and expertise would be very welcome.

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#4604474 - 12/15/17 12:58 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1291
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
I think some manufacturers increase fuel to combat LSPI. Interestingly, octane increase does combat LSPI also, but a for a couple of reasons. There are studies that show, also, the fuel dilution comes from cold weather starting, and stop/starting in any weather.

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#4604479 - 12/15/17 01:01 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: Danh]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4648
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: Danh
Imho, this is THE lubrication issue of the day and second place isn't even close. This is a radical change from the world we've been living in since the era of carburetors, yet it gets little attention outside of forums like this.

Little useful information comes from the OEMs or lubricant manufacturers. Consumer Reports or one of the auto mags would provide a real service if they would explore the issue more fully, maybe including a UOA as part of their testing methodology.

Reasonable questions I'd like to see answered include:

1) Why do some makes seem to deal with DI/LSPI issues better than others?
2) What are the real reasons for fuel dilution? Is it to prevent LSPI? Is it a response to other engine knock? Is it inevitable as excess fuel has to be in the combustion chamber to cool the charge enough for the relatively high compression ratio?
3) At what level of contamination does fuel dilution really matter? At what point do increasing sump levels matter?
4) Will introduction of Dexos1/Gen2, SN+, GF6 allow OEMs to tune engines differently and alleviate some of these problems? If so, once these lubricants have saturated the market will OEMs reflash earlier models to achieve the same results?
5) Are extended OCIs really appropriate for these engines?
6) What can owners do?
7) How does an owner know if their example has a problem or is typical?

It sure seems to me most automakers are putting out compromised products in response to worldwide fuel economy and emission standards. A candid discussion including people with resources and expertise would be very welcome.




Great questions. In particular I wonder if American and foreign automakers are steering towards the same goals? Some brands push more towards power while others more towards fuel economy. It even gets model specific and or specific to point of assembly.






Great questions. In particular I wonder if American and foreign automakers are steering towards the same goals? Some brands push more towards power while others more towards fuel economy. It even gets model specific and or specific to point of assembly.


Edited by PimTac (12/15/17 01:06 PM)
Edit Reason: My reply ended up in the quote
_________________________
2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter


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#4604480 - 12/15/17 01:01 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8999
Loc: Southeast Florida
On the other hand, i've now owned 4 GDI, one of which is T-GDI and not one has had any issues with dilution, LSPI or intake deposits. The two with the highest mileage are, the (now sold) Hyundai Veloster 1.6 with over 80K miles and the current SFS 2.0T with about 90K. I've used all types of motor oils and 87 to 93 octane fuel. The two things i've never done?

1. Go past 4.5K miles between OCI
2. Use anything less than Top Tier fuel

Vigilance and caution are important but in the grand scheme of things, as mentioned by the OP, most drivers will never notice, care or do anything to try and mitigate the very rare but real possibilities.

knocking on wood every so often smile
_________________________
17 Sonata Sport 2.4L
NAPA Full Synthetic 5w20 | OEM

13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T
Valvoline MaxLife 5w30 | M1-104

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#4604514 - 12/15/17 01:26 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: wemay]
Y_K Offline


Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 2183
Loc: WA (USA)
You are joking, right? 80-90k miles is nothing, may be an achievement for a Wankel.

I am keeping my 2UZEFs and other NA toys. I guess, electric vehicles will provide deliverance soon.

OP: thank you for your great work and Merry Christmas!

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#4604523 - 12/15/17 01:32 PM Re: The Great Generational Divide [Re: bigj_16]
PandaBear Offline


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 14269
Loc: Silicon Valley
It is more of an intake valve deposit thing for most.

Fuel dilution and soot can be taken care of (i.e. 6.6 qt sump for a 2.5L engine), LSPI is mostly a turbo thing and new Dexos 1 gen 2 take care of that. If you are going with the dual injection setup from Toyota you probably don't need to worry much about it.
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