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Bitcoin an energy disaster #4603567
12/14/17 03:32 PM
12/14/17 03:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-12/bi...tricity/9246888

It's been assessed that the mining of the limit of 1,800 bitcoins per month is using electricity equivalent to the energy consumption of New Zealand.

Yes, that's tiny...but meaningless calculations to "do the work" required to gain a bitcoin mean that currently the energy consumption is that of a modern country.


Read one economist who said that it's not a runaway catastrophe, the price of energy will stabilise the bitcoin price.

For reference, 150MWh on a 40% efficient plant is about 145,000 lb of coal.

In a way the bitcoin "mining" is akin to having the hole digging gangs digging holes and filling them back up...effort for the sake of doing it.

Years ago I used to donate spare processing capacity to SETI and Cancer research...at least using that sort of process for bitcoin payment makes some sense.

Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603576
12/14/17 03:42 PM
12/14/17 03:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,208
Midwest USA
LoneRanger Online content
LoneRanger  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,208
Midwest USA
Yep. When bitcoin was low triple digits, mining wasn't as big of a deal. North of $10,000/per, well, I can see people and consortiums both pvt and govt getting into serious mining.



'09 Subaru Forester ...................(QS HM 5W30)
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Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603590
12/14/17 04:03 PM
12/14/17 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 651
Virginia
cpayne5 Offline
cpayne5  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 651
Virginia

Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603642
12/14/17 05:34 PM
12/14/17 05:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,278
San Antonio, TX
E150GT Offline
E150GT  Offline
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Posts: 1,278
San Antonio, TX
My brother has a finished out shed he calls “the lodge” complete with Sheetrock and insulation. He was mining bitcoin via about 6 machines and could not keep that shed cool. He had fans and two window units. It got so hot one cord burned and could have caused a fire. I don’t even want to imagine how much his utility bill was. That’s probably the reason he doesn’t do it anymore. That and the machines needed are more powerful than the ones he has now.


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Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: cpayne5] #4603647
12/14/17 05:41 PM
12/14/17 05:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: cpayne5


talking head justifying the huge energy wastage...

Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603649
12/14/17 05:43 PM
12/14/17 05:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,323
Santa Barbara, CA
bdcardinal Online content
bdcardinal  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,323
Santa Barbara, CA
One of my friends has multiple server racks in his house, none are for mining, but his power bill is astronomical. The people that tend to do the mining setups do it in a way where the power companies will report them to the police to investigate. Their sudden increase has the same pattern as a grow house.


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Opinions expressed are my own.
Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603675
12/14/17 06:03 PM
12/14/17 06:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 683
South Carolina
eyeofthetiger Offline
eyeofthetiger  Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 683
South Carolina
Bitcoin mining is not cost effective on the U.S. power grid. I think most of the big mining operations went to China for the cheap electricity.


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Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: eyeofthetiger] #4603677
12/14/17 06:04 PM
12/14/17 06:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,145
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,145
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
Bitcoin mining is not cost effective on the U.S. power grid. I think most of the big mining operations went to China for the cheap electricity.


And comically, where they burn the most coal. Go figure.

Wouldn't be economical in Ontario either. Would be in Quebec though, they pay less than $0.05/kWh.


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Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: bdcardinal] #4603684
12/14/17 06:09 PM
12/14/17 06:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
One of my friends has multiple server racks in his house, none are for mining, but his power bill is astronomical. The people that tend to do the mining setups do it in a way where the power companies will report them to the police to investigate. Their sudden increase has the same pattern as a grow house.


Jeez, maybe the Trailer Park Boys are into bitcoin mining now??
;^)


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Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4603691
12/14/17 06:16 PM
12/14/17 06:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 453
Indiana
5AcresAndAFool Offline
5AcresAndAFool  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 453
Indiana
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
One of my friends has multiple server racks in his house, none are for mining, but his power bill is astronomical. The people that tend to do the mining setups do it in a way where the power companies will report them to the police to investigate. Their sudden increase has the same pattern as a grow house.


Jeez, maybe the Trailer Park Boys are into bitcoin mining now??
;^)



This show is one of my guilty pleasures.

Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603693
12/14/17 06:16 PM
12/14/17 06:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,424
Silicon Valley
PandaBear Offline
PandaBear  Offline
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Posts: 14,424
Silicon Valley
The same as physical gold mining throughout human history. Didn't add any value to the overall economy but people did it and wasted a lot of human resources.

I have my own believe on why bitcoin price is where it is now, and it has nothing to do with mining energy cost. I think it has more to do with institutional investors buying them and consolidating the ownership to manipulate the prices, like how diamond, oil, aluminum prices are manipulated.

I know there were places where Taxi medallions were bought up by one family, keeping it high, and used as a collateral for loans for more medallion purchases to keep the prices high.

Last edited by PandaBear; 12/14/17 06:17 PM.

"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: PandaBear] #4603698
12/14/17 06:23 PM
12/14/17 06:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I have my own believe on why bitcoin price is where it is now, and it has nothing to do with mining energy cost. I think it has more to do with institutional investors buying them and consolidating the ownership to manipulate the prices, like how diamond, oil, aluminum prices are manipulated.


Yes, but the price, and the limit 1,800 that can be mined per month justify inordinate energy useage to be the one that gets the coins.

Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603706
12/14/17 06:31 PM
12/14/17 06:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 651
Virginia
cpayne5 Offline
cpayne5  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 651
Virginia
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: cpayne5


talking head justifying the huge energy wastage...


I'm more interested in your argument/refutation of the position rather than the person giving it. If you're willing.

Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: cpayne5] #4603730
12/14/17 06:54 PM
12/14/17 06:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Shannow Offline OP
Shannow  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: cpayne5

I'm more interested in your argument/refutation of the position rather than the person giving it. If you're willing.


OK, he's saying that the energy use is the energy use, and that's all there is to it.
And that the users will move where the energy is cheap - cheap because it's oversupplied at that location.
And "look over there a bunny", the money sector uses energy too, they have armoured cars, while we have crypto security. The more that they move, the more armoured cars that they move, whereas you don't have to scale their crypto security.
And if you build a fictitious green power station for the future, and use the energy to mine bitcoin today, you pay it off sooner rather than later, making it a green coin...soaking up renewables, increasing their local prices (his supply/demand statement, just means more ungreen is burned somewhere else.

Yes, the money sector uses energy, but is used by most of us versus bitcoin.

So what's your analysis of the article that I linked rather than just throwing a youtube link ?

Re: Bitcoin an energy disaster [Re: Shannow] #4603779
12/14/17 07:43 PM
12/14/17 07:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 651
Virginia
cpayne5 Offline
cpayne5  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 651
Virginia
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: cpayne5

I'm more interested in your argument/refutation of the position rather than the person giving it. If you're willing.


OK, he's saying that the energy use is the energy use, and that's all there is to it.
And that the users will move where the energy is cheap - cheap because it's oversupplied at that location.
And "look over there a bunny", the money sector uses energy too, they have armoured cars, while we have crypto security. The more that they move, the more armoured cars that they move, whereas you don't have to scale their crypto security.
And if you build a fictitious green power station for the future, and use the energy to mine bitcoin today, you pay it off sooner rather than later, making it a green coin...soaking up renewables, increasing their local prices (his supply/demand statement, just means more ungreen is burned somewhere else.

Yes, the money sector uses energy, but is used by most of us versus bitcoin.

So what's your analysis of the article that I linked rather than just throwing a youtube link ?



The bolded parts show a misunderstanding of the fundamental belief system of bitcoin purists. Essentially, they believe that bitcoin is a superior currency to anything in existence and that it provides a net benefit by its very existence (decentralization, security, anonymity, zero inflation, transactional integrity, etc). Not saying I believe that, but just giving you that as a reference.

I'm not well versed enough on the pros/cons of bitcoin to really have my opinion mean much of anything at this point. I find it interesting and try to listen to believers and naysayers when they have something valid to say. There's a ton of discussion on cryptocurrencies these days, and I simply provided the Youtube link as an opinion I had come across that speaks to the thesis of your article. Not trying to persuade anyone, as I've not been swayed either way myself.


Last edited by cpayne5; 12/14/17 07:57 PM.
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