0W-40 - Castrol vs Mobil vs Pennzoil

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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
As for 0w oils? Doesn't matter where you live, a 0w oil is going to flow quickly to get your oil circulating as quick as possible. It may be minimal difference in warmer climates vs extreme cold climates, yet still useful I am sure.

No, not at all. Some 0W oils of the same grade are thicker than the equivalent 5W except at extremely low temperatures. Besides, as long as it is pumpable then the flow will be more or less the same.

My old BMW used to live outside in northern Wisconsin where it could get to -25F and lower in the winter. Thet's the only place you will see a difference between a 5W and a 0W, and even then it is pretty small.


But but but many people here can tell they have a 0w oil in their snow blower at 32*F!
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In some cases it may be so that a 0w would have a thicker viscosity over a 5w but that is not why I used the Castrol. I used it because it was VW approved and it seemed to make the VW run smoother. I have no DB meter or anything to contest to this, but the car just seems to like it.

The ONLY reason I am considering to try out the Redline 5w30 in my VW is primarily usage. My VW sits for a week, or two, sometimes three weeks in between drives. I keep the car on a battery tender. The Dry Starts may be causing some wear that I normally wouldn't have driving it how I used to (used to be my daily driver).

I realize the Redline isn't VW approved, but I am out of warranty anyway, so no biggie there. I just would like to know if the Ester Base stocks would actually adhere to metal surfaces better for the car sitting like this vs the PAO and GTL base stocks.

According to many here on BITOG it should. Redline has since changed the formula (Speculation) and wanted some insight on this before I try it.

Currently I just put my last 5 qt jug of German Castrol 0w40 in, took a used oil sample of the oil that came out. I didn't need to change it miles wise, but I drove it 1800 miles in 18 months so I changed it to see what a UOA will look like. Just out of curiosity. I will post it here when I get it back.


Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So if posters are saying 0w40 Castrol started at 90% PAO and was considered "Synthetic" to German standards, since has dropped to HC status in Germany. Is this when it switched to being produced in Germany to Hungary or wherever its made now?

So if to be considered "Synthetic" to Germany standards is over 50% PAO, it now sits at under 30% so now its basically a Group 3 Oil now? mmmmm

May be time for me to give the Redline 5w30 a try now. I am out of warranty on my VW and I only drive the car like 2k miles a year. Maybe the Group 5 base stocks would be better for me and the cold starts of not driving my VW for weeks at a time? Thoughts on that?


Jeff

It actually retained same performance. Pour point increased though from -60c to -51c.


It's hard to say how much PAO there is in EDGE 0W-40, as there are two SDS's from August 2017. One shows 50-75% PAO, the other shows 25-50%. I would say regardless of which is correct, it is still more than any other readily available "mainstream" A3/B4 oil with the "Big 4" oil certifications.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
It's hard to say how much PAO there is in EDGE 0W-40, as there are two SDS's from August 2017. One shows 50-75% PAO, the other shows 25-50%. I would say regardless of which is correct, it is still more than any other readily available "mainstream" A3/B4 oil with the "Big 4" oil certifications.

And it still retains all the certifications it did before, unless I haven't seen where some were dropped. So clearly it didn't make a difference if the base stock composition changed, unless someone wishes to try and make the technical case that it is now inferior
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
It's hard to say how much PAO there is in EDGE 0W-40, as there are two SDS's from August 2017. One shows 50-75% PAO, the other shows 25-50%. I would say regardless of which is correct, it is still more than any other readily available "mainstream" A3/B4 oil with the "Big 4" oil certifications.

And it still retains all the certifications it did before, unless I haven't seen where some were dropped. So clearly it didn't make a difference if the base stock composition changed, unless someone wishes to try and make the technical case that it is now inferior
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Exactly. I would surmise that the reduced PAO content is due to advancements in Group III, lessening the need for higher quantities of more expensive PAO. Fine by me!
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
It's hard to say how much PAO there is in EDGE 0W-40, as there are two SDS's from August 2017. One shows 50-75% PAO, the other shows 25-50%. I would say regardless of which is correct, it is still more than any other readily available "mainstream" A3/B4 oil with the "Big 4" oil certifications.

And it still retains all the certifications it did before, unless I haven't seen where some were dropped. So clearly it didn't make a difference if the base stock composition changed, unless someone wishes to try and make the technical case that it is now inferior
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Exactly. I would surmise that the reduced PAO content is due to advancements in Group III, lessening the need for higher quantities of more expensive PAO. Fine by me!

Exactly. Mobil1 5W30 ESP also has updated formulation. It stinks more! I think they actually added more Ester and there is no anymore of that characteristic noise for Mobil1 products. Whatever they did it is still approved by ridiculous number of manufacturers. I think half of bottle in the back is list of approvals.
 
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I think you may be talking about Pennzoil "Ultra Platinum" (SRT) 0w40.

Pennzoil Platinum Euro should have ACEA and API specs as well as the Euro manufacturer approvals.


Originally Posted By: Trav
I think where Falcon LS is they only get the SRT version of the 0w40.


Thank you, gentlemen - that is exactly what I was thinking of since Pennzoil products here are only sold though Dodge/Chrysler dealers. The comparable product here would be Shell Helix Ultra 0W-40.


What is your preference Falcon? If you could get the oils we are discussing in States.
Thanks in advance!




Respectfully,

Pajero!
 
I noticed the SDS with the BE code has 25-50 percent PAO and the SDS with the DE code is 50-75 percent PAO. I wonder if BE stands for Belgium and DE Germany.
 
That's certainly a possibility, and worth watching to see if any bottle numbers or sell sheet numbers help confirm this. I know that Shell sell sheets have helped figure out a few puzzling things for me in the past.
 
Originally Posted By: spiderbypass
I noticed the SDS with the BE code has 25-50 percent PAO and the SDS with the DE code is 50-75 percent PAO. I wonder if BE stands for Belgium and DE Germany.


Yes, BE stands for Belgium and DE - for Germany. Formulation was changed in both countries and if to believe Castrol guys it happened in December 2016. That's why, since certain time in 2017 its German home page classifies 0W-40 as non fully synthetic. I suppose that listing MSDS for earlier version may be caused by availability of this version on the shelves. Seems similar situation with Mobil1 0W-40: EOM still provides MSDS for at least 2 versions and sometimes even 3 ones.
 
Just checked - Castrol DE provides 2 different MSDSs from 2017 and one from 2014:

https://msdspds.castrol.com/msdspds/msdspds.nsf/CastrolResults?OpenForm&c=Germany%20(DE)&l=German%20(DE)&p=EDGE%200W-40%20&n=&b=All&t=MSDS&autosearch=No&autoload=No&sitelang=DE&output=Full&spu=Lubricants&unrestrictedmb=No&cols=0
 
Looks like my X5 has been getting the 25-50% PAO version (Belgium). Fine by me. It's also interesting that they are using two different types of PAO. The Belgium version is what I have always seen ("Decene"), however, the German PAO version "Pentadecene, 7-methylene" is something I've never seen before. I know it is just a chemistry term that represents the length of the carbon chain, but interesting nonetheless.
 
Does it really matter if it's a group 3 or group 4 base stock? We know that modern group 3 base stocks are nearly identical in performance to PAO oils. If they were significantly inferior major oil manufacturers wouldn't be using them and they certainly wouldn't carry the manufacturer approvals that they do.

I'm currently quite interested in Group 3+/GTL oils. I was going to run my Defender & Suzuki Jimmny on Mobil1 0w40 Turbo Diesel A3/B4 (what you guys call 'old' Mobil1 0w40 in the US) but it's £25 for 5 litres where I can get Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 which meets the same approvals plus some more for £17 for 5 litres.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Looks like my X5 has been getting the 25-50% PAO version (Belgium). Fine by me. It's also interesting that they are using two different types of PAO. The Belgium version is what I have always seen ("Decene"), however, the German PAO version "Pentadecene, 7-methylene" is something I've never seen before. I know it is just a chemistry term that represents the length of the carbon chain, but interesting nonetheless.


Pentadecane, 7-methylene-, mixed with 1-tetradecene, dimers and trimers, hydrogenated is Durasyn® 164 (or 164x) made by INEOS. BTW, MSDS of Castrol-BP Belgium shows the same address as INEOS:

AMOCOLAAN 2A
BE-2440 GEEL
BELGIUM

INEOS O&P Europe's Geel Belgium facility is on an industrial site established originally in 1967 by Amoco Chemicals. The 115 hectare site – of which 38 hectares is INEOS property - is shared with BP's Aromatics and Acetyls Group.


As for description of used PAO, it's a very interesting observation. Thanks for paying attention. Hope our gurus will explain what this may mean exactly.

Product code 467465-DE01, dd. March 2017
Pentadecane, 7-methylene-, mixed with 1-tetradecene, dimers and trimers, hydrogenated - min 25 - max 50
Lubricating oils (petroleum), C20-50, hydrotreated neutral oil-based - equal or less than 10
Lubricating oils (petroleum), C15-30, hydrotreated neutral oil-based - equal or less than 3
Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic - equal or less than 3

Product code 467465-BE02, dd. March 2017
Dec-1-ene, trimers, hydrogenated - min 25 - max 50
Base oil - unspecified Varies - See Key to abbreviations min 25 - max 50
Lubricating oils (petroleum), C20-50, hydrotreated neutral oil-based - equal or less than 10
Lubricating oils (petroleum), C15-30, hydrotreated neutral oil-based - equal or less than 3
Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic - equal or less than 3


Product code 463998-DE01, dd. August 2017
Pentadecane, 7-methylene-, mixed with 1-tetradecene, dimers and trimers, hydrogenated - min 50 - max 75
Lubricating oils (petroleum), C15-30, hydrotreated neutral oil-based - equal or less than 3
Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic - equal or less than 3
Lubricating oils (petroleum), C20-50, hydrotreated neutral oil-based - equal or less than 3

Belgium page specifies the same product code Belgium as German one - 463998-DE01.

If to be based by dates, it may seem that August MSDS shows the last composition, but given now Castrol DE does not classify its Edge 0W-40 A3/B4 as a full synthetic by German criteria, we may suppose that namely March MSDS shows what it's supplied now.
 
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Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
Does it really matter if it's a group 3 or group 4 base stock? We know that modern group 3 base stocks are nearly identical in performance to PAO oils. If they were significantly inferior major oil manufacturers wouldn't be using them and they certainly wouldn't carry the manufacturer approvals that they do.

I'm currently quite interested in Group 3+/GTL oils. I was going to run my Defender & Suzuki Jimmny on Mobil1 0w40 Turbo Diesel A3/B4 (what you guys call 'old' Mobil1 0w40 in the US) but it's £25 for 5 litres where I can get Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 which meets the same approvals plus some more for £17 for 5 litres.


I don't think any Group 3 oil can come close to PAOs cold-flow properties. And I think even the best Group 3s have lower viscosity indices compared to PAO. The problem is that PAO is extremely expensive to make, comparatively.
 
I am someone who was brutal in chemistry and with that lack of understanding I admittedly have a subjective bias that an oil with more PAO is better. I also superficially look at the visible additive packages when making a decision. Mobil 1 0w40 fs has a robust additive package on paper and a higher base number than Castrol. I think the argument for Castrol was that it had a higher percentage of PAO, which maybe made up for a less sexy additive package-again superficially based on Blackstone. While Mobil 1 uses less percentage of PAO 10-20 percent-I like that they use 40-70 percent GTL.
 
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