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#4597126 - 12/07/17 01:03 PM 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1112
Loc: Chicago / IN
This car is gently driven, but 80% city. 142,000 miles. 14,500 miles interval, zero make-up oil added.

This uoa should be a cautionary tale regarding only the use of TBN and also blackstone's arbitrary 1.0 condemnation point. TBN only indicates the oil's potential to neutralize acids. Acid number is what quantifies the actual acid buildup which is what it's all about.

The starting oxidation number for M1 is pretty high so this can't be used at face value. And XOM says to use TAN rather than Oxidation for synthetic oils (for their products at least).

TBN vs. TAN threshold, there doesn't seem to be clear consensus. Polaris/Oil Analyzers say 65% TBN depletion or 2x starting TAN or 23 + starting oxidation. Cummins says TBN <2.5 or 50% of starting TBN or TAN>TAN. I've seen other sources say starting TAN + 3.

Starting TBN of this oil is 8-9. I've seen TAN of 2.5 (from Blackstone but I don't fully trust their testing accuracy), but the TAN was 1.7 on one of my previous uoa's.

In any case, I'll probably send a reference sample for VOA before the next UOA on this car. Viscosity is still under control so it's not at a critical level, but copper is slightly elevated. I will probably back it off to 13k miles next time.




Edited by vinu_neuro (12/07/17 01:05 PM)
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#4597168 - 12/07/17 01:50 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro]
mightymousetech Offline


Registered: 04/03/17
Posts: 1314
Loc: Ontario, Canada
The only source of copper in an Acura motor is from the engine bearings, as far as I know. And that is not till you have worn through the first layer of the bearings. Any knocking noises?
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#4597175 - 12/07/17 02:01 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1112
Loc: Chicago / IN
Copper is under the lead layer in the bearings. Copper is also present in brass and bronze parts like rocker arm and wrist pin bushings.

It is not a very high level, just indicating some corrosion from elsewhere, indicating the TAN level.


Edited by vinu_neuro (12/07/17 02:16 PM)
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#4597215 - 12/07/17 02:45 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 30362
Loc: NJ
The viscosity starts off at 8.6cSt and it ended up at 8.9cSt. Oxidation has been kept in check and the overall report is very good.
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#4597306 - 12/07/17 04:53 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6002
Loc: Texas/International
“Gentle” or not 14.5K with a high percentage of city driving is a workout for the oil …
Do you clear and reset the OLM … curios about when it was out of percent?

I’d go 12k … 13k will cause a black cat to cross the road in front of you and then …
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#4597318 - 12/07/17 05:05 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: 4WD]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1112
Loc: Chicago / IN
Originally Posted By: 4WD
“Gentle” or not 14.5K with a high percentage of city driving is a workout for the oil …
Do you clear and reset the OLM … curios about when it was out of percent?

I’d go 12k … 13k will cause a black cat to cross the road in front of you and then …


OLM went to 0% at around 7000 miles into the oci, but it is's also calibrated to for dino.


Edited by vinu_neuro (12/07/17 05:10 PM)
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#4597408 - 12/07/17 06:48 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: buster]
bbhero Offline


Registered: 03/20/15
Posts: 4373
Loc: Virginia
Only question to this is TBN being 1.95 and TAN being almost 6. That is almost 3 times TAN vs TBN. That seems a bit to high for TAN to be at. I have seen TAN was 2 times as high as TBN and that in some cases was thought of has still serviceable oil. Three times as high seems possibly a step too far?? Or maybe it isn't??


Edited by bbhero (12/07/17 06:49 PM)
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#4597561 - 12/07/17 09:30 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro]
Artem Offline


Registered: 10/30/10
Posts: 5085
Loc: Florida
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)
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#4597963 - 12/08/17 10:59 AM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro]
parshisa Online   content


Registered: 05/21/17
Posts: 367
Loc: TX
Oil has been badly overran. "gentle" and "city driving", i think, cannot be used in the same sentence. I'd cut OCI in a half
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#4598242 - 12/08/17 03:42 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: Artem]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13522
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Artem
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)


How do you know that performance will decline after 200,000K?
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#4598244 - 12/08/17 03:43 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: parshisa]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13522
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: parshisa
Oil has been badly overran. "gentle" and "city driving", i think, cannot be used in the same sentence. I'd cut OCI in a half


Why cut the OCI in half.
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#4598444 - 12/08/17 07:04 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: tig1]
Artem Offline


Registered: 10/30/10
Posts: 5085
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Artem
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)


How do you know that performance will decline after 200,000K?


Because if he continues to run the oil for the rated 15k miles, I suspect that engine internals will begin to suffer and show signs of wear from the extended drain intervals and high TAN related side effects.

By performance declining, I mean, there's no way this engine will produce the factory rated HP on these intervals vs one driven identically with say... 10k OCI for comparison of Lube related engine wear.
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#4598470 - 12/08/17 07:28 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro]
SatinSilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 9748
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
OLM went to 0% at around 7000 miles into the oci, but it is's also calibrated to for dino.


Acura has a full syn oil and a syn-blend oil. So I would say the MM is designed to run on syn-blend oil not conventional. Here is a link to the oil:

http://acura.bernardiparts.com/Acura-Motor-Oils-Synthetic-Blend__08798-90XX.aspx
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#4598525 - 12/08/17 08:14 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: Artem]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13522
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Artem
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)


How do you know that performance will decline after 200,000K?


Because if he continues to run the oil for the rated 15k miles, I suspect that engine internals will begin to suffer and show signs of wear from the extended drain intervals and high TAN related side effects.

By performance declining, I mean, there's no way this engine will produce the factory rated HP on these intervals vs one driven identically with say... 10k OCI for comparison of Lube related engine wear.


I believe that is pure speculation not based on fact. Personally I know a person that changed reg M1 oils at 15-25K and their engine performed very well with no sign of engine wear. Just sayin.
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2007 Ford Fusion 224,000 miles
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2017 Ford Fusion 47K
M1 0-20 EP
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M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
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#4598660 - 12/08/17 11:50 PM Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: SatinSilver]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1112
Loc: Chicago / IN
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
OLM went to 0% at around 7000 miles into the oci, but it is's also calibrated to for dino.


Acura has a full syn oil and a syn-blend oil. So I would say the MM is designed to run on syn-blend oil not conventional. Here is a link to the oil:

http://acura.bernardiparts.com/Acura-Motor-Oils-Synthetic-Blend__08798-90XX.aspx


This is a 12 year old car and the manual calls for any 5W-20.

Originally Posted By: tig1


I believe that is pure speculation not based on fact. Personally I know a person that changed reg M1 oils at 15-25K and their engine performed very well with no sign of engine wear. Just sayin.

15k OCI is borderline or too long with primarily city driving, even for EP. The proof is in the uoa.

With a 12k oci next time, if the copper is much lower with a much lower TAN, it will be confirmation that there was corrosive wear with the 15k interval.


Edited by vinu_neuro (12/08/17 11:56 PM)
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