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2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles #4597126
12/07/17 02:03 PM
12/07/17 02:03 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
vinu_neuro Offline OP
vinu_neuro  Offline OP
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
This car is gently driven, but 80% city. 142,000 miles. 14,500 miles interval, zero make-up oil added.

This uoa should be a cautionary tale regarding only the use of TBN and also blackstone's arbitrary 1.0 condemnation point. TBN only indicates the oil's potential to neutralize acids. Acid number is what quantifies the actual acid buildup which is what it's all about.

The starting oxidation number for M1 is pretty high so this can't be used at face value. And XOM says to use TAN rather than Oxidation for synthetic oils (for their products at least).

TBN vs. TAN threshold, there doesn't seem to be clear consensus. Polaris/Oil Analyzers say 65% TBN depletion or 2x starting TAN or 23 + starting oxidation. Cummins says TBN <2.5 or 50% of starting TBN or TAN>TAN. I've seen other sources say starting TAN + 3.

Starting TBN of this oil is 8-9. I've seen TAN of 2.5 (from Blackstone but I don't fully trust their testing accuracy), but the TAN was 1.7 on one of my previous uoa's.

In any case, I'll probably send a reference sample for VOA before the next UOA on this car. Viscosity is still under control so it's not at a critical level, but copper is slightly elevated. I will probably back it off to 13k miles next time.



Last edited by vinu_neuro; 12/07/17 02:05 PM.


Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro] #4597168
12/07/17 02:50 PM
12/07/17 02:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,481
Ontario, Canada
mightymousetech Offline
mightymousetech  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,481
Ontario, Canada
The only source of copper in an Acura motor is from the engine bearings, as far as I know. And that is not till you have worn through the first layer of the bearings. Any knocking noises?


Mighty Mouse Tech
BMW Tech, Former Acura Tech
2010 Civic Si Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
2013 BMW 135i M Sport Edition Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro] #4597175
12/07/17 03:01 PM
12/07/17 03:01 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
vinu_neuro Offline OP
vinu_neuro  Offline OP
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
Copper is under the lead layer in the bearings. Copper is also present in brass and bronze parts like rocker arm and wrist pin bushings.

It is not a very high level, just indicating some corrosion from elsewhere, indicating the TAN level.

Last edited by vinu_neuro; 12/07/17 03:16 PM.


Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro] #4597215
12/07/17 03:45 PM
12/07/17 03:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,741
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,741
NJ
The viscosity starts off at 8.6cSt and it ended up at 8.9cSt. Oxidation has been kept in check and the overall report is very good.



Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro] #4597306
12/07/17 05:53 PM
12/07/17 05:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,080
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,080
Texas
Gentle or not 14.5K with a high percentage of city driving is a workout for the oil
Do you clear and reset the OLM curios about when it was out of percent?

Id go 12k 13k will cause a black cat to cross the road in front of you and then

Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: 4WD] #4597318
12/07/17 06:05 PM
12/07/17 06:05 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
vinu_neuro Offline OP
vinu_neuro  Offline OP
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Gentle or not 14.5K with a high percentage of city driving is a workout for the oil
Do you clear and reset the OLM curios about when it was out of percent?

Id go 12k 13k will cause a black cat to cross the road in front of you and then


OLM went to 0% at around 7000 miles into the oci, but it is's also calibrated to for dino.

Last edited by vinu_neuro; 12/07/17 06:10 PM.


Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: buster] #4597408
12/07/17 07:48 PM
12/07/17 07:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,097
Virginia
bbhero Online content
bbhero  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,097
Virginia
Only question to this is TBN being 1.95 and TAN being almost 6. That is almost 3 times TAN vs TBN. That seems a bit to high for TAN to be at. I have seen TAN was 2 times as high as TBN and that in some cases was thought of has still serviceable oil. Three times as high seems possibly a step too far?? Or maybe it isn't??

Last edited by bbhero; 12/07/17 07:49 PM.

Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
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Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro] #4597561
12/07/17 10:30 PM
12/07/17 10:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,311
Florida
Artem Offline
Artem  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,311
Florida
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro] #4597963
12/08/17 11:59 AM
12/08/17 11:59 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 737
TX
parshisa Offline
parshisa  Offline
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 737
TX
Oil has been badly overran. "gentle" and "city driving", i think, cannot be used in the same sentence. I'd cut OCI in a half


2016 Honda Pilot 3.5V6 PP 0W20
2017 Honda Civic 1.5T Amsoil SS 5W30
Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: Artem] #4598242
12/08/17 04:42 PM
12/08/17 04:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,852
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,852
Illinois
Originally Posted By: Artem
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)


How do you know that performance will decline after 200,000K?


2007 Ford Fusion 232,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 58K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: parshisa] #4598244
12/08/17 04:43 PM
12/08/17 04:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,852
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,852
Illinois
Originally Posted By: parshisa
Oil has been badly overran. "gentle" and "city driving", i think, cannot be used in the same sentence. I'd cut OCI in a half


Why cut the OCI in half.


2007 Ford Fusion 232,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 58K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: tig1] #4598444
12/08/17 08:04 PM
12/08/17 08:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,311
Florida
Artem Offline
Artem  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,311
Florida
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Artem
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)


How do you know that performance will decline after 200,000K?


Because if he continues to run the oil for the rated 15k miles, I suspect that engine internals will begin to suffer and show signs of wear from the extended drain intervals and high TAN related side effects.

By performance declining, I mean, there's no way this engine will produce the factory rated HP on these intervals vs one driven identically with say... 10k OCI for comparison of Lube related engine wear.


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: vinu_neuro] #4598470
12/08/17 08:28 PM
12/08/17 08:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,797
OH
SatinSilver Offline
SatinSilver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,797
OH
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
OLM went to 0% at around 7000 miles into the oci, but it is's also calibrated to for dino.


Acura has a full syn oil and a syn-blend oil. So I would say the MM is designed to run on syn-blend oil not conventional. Here is a link to the oil:

http://acura.bernardiparts.com/Acura-Motor-Oils-Synthetic-Blend__08798-90XX.aspx

Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: Artem] #4598525
12/08/17 09:14 PM
12/08/17 09:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,852
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,852
Illinois
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Artem
Well... "technically" the oil could have made it to its rated 15,000 mile mark and "technically" the engine didn't blow up. Congrats. You could definitely keep this up and milk the engine to 200,000 miles before things start going downhill and performance declines (in my opinion.)


How do you know that performance will decline after 200,000K?


Because if he continues to run the oil for the rated 15k miles, I suspect that engine internals will begin to suffer and show signs of wear from the extended drain intervals and high TAN related side effects.

By performance declining, I mean, there's no way this engine will produce the factory rated HP on these intervals vs one driven identically with say... 10k OCI for comparison of Lube related engine wear.


I believe that is pure speculation not based on fact. Personally I know a person that changed reg M1 oils at 15-25K and their engine performed very well with no sign of engine wear. Just sayin.


2007 Ford Fusion 232,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 58K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: 2005 Acura TL - Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 - 14,500 miles [Re: SatinSilver] #4598660
12/09/17 12:50 AM
12/09/17 12:50 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
vinu_neuro Offline OP
vinu_neuro  Offline OP
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
OLM went to 0% at around 7000 miles into the oci, but it is's also calibrated to for dino.


Acura has a full syn oil and a syn-blend oil. So I would say the MM is designed to run on syn-blend oil not conventional. Here is a link to the oil:

http://acura.bernardiparts.com/Acura-Motor-Oils-Synthetic-Blend__08798-90XX.aspx


This is a 12 year old car and the manual calls for any 5W-20.

Originally Posted By: tig1


I believe that is pure speculation not based on fact. Personally I know a person that changed reg M1 oils at 15-25K and their engine performed very well with no sign of engine wear. Just sayin.

15k OCI is borderline or too long with primarily city driving, even for EP. The proof is in the uoa.

With a 12k oci next time, if the copper is much lower with a much lower TAN, it will be confirmation that there was corrosive wear with the 15k interval.

Last edited by vinu_neuro; 12/09/17 12:56 AM.


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