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Hydrogen future #4596774
12/07/17 05:34 AM
12/07/17 05:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,513
'Stralia
Shannow Online content OP
Shannow  Online Content OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,513
'Stralia
http://www.hydrogenambassadors.com/images/the-hydrogen-society-more-than-just-a-vision.pdf

Just throwing it out there, as many of you know, having built an electrolytic hydrogen plant in the early 1990s, I'm not a fan of H2 as a storage medium.

Paper shows some technologies and some alternatives.

Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow] #4596787
12/07/17 06:32 AM
12/07/17 06:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,674
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,674
Jupiter, Florida
Thanks for the link. So far, it seems to be agenda driven. I especially enjoyed the "population without electricity" section. Questioning whether people are better off without it and hanging out in the fields with the cows....

My take is that conservation of power is necessary, but restriction is not. We can produce all the power we need, without difficulty.

Hydrogen may be a viable form of transportation power. Especially via a PEM (proton exchange membrane fuel cell) in electric cars. Unfortunately, the cost,,,,

He's a bit off with the aviation/hydrogen connection. Incorrectly using a 4 day glider, powered by hydrogen as an example. Today's jet aircraft require HEAT to achieve the performance we desire. We cannot perform the same task with electric motor driven props or fans. We must also include vast quantities of heat to provide sufficient discharge velocity for high speed travel. The faster we want to go, the more heat required.


Last edited by Cujet; 12/07/17 06:44 AM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow] #4596882
12/07/17 08:39 AM
12/07/17 08:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,475
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,475
...
I was always intrigued by Honda’s efforts in hydrogen with their home station. By providing the power to run the home plus produce hydrogen for the car. But it seems to be not discussed as much anymore. Did it not pan out?


http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/HydrogenStation/HomeEnergyStationIV/index.html


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Hydrogen future [Re: PimTac] #4596913
12/07/17 08:58 AM
12/07/17 08:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,507
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,507
Wet side WA
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I was always intrigued by Honda’s efforts in hydrogen with their home station. By providing the power to run the home plus produce hydrogen for the car. But it seems to be not discussed as much anymore. Did it not pan out?


http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/HydrogenStation/HomeEnergyStationIV/index.html


You didn't really think the energy companies and government were going to let you out of the biggest Ponzi scheme going and let you off the hook?


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Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow] #4597016
12/07/17 10:30 AM
12/07/17 10:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,010
Buffalo, NY
JTK Offline
JTK  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,010
Buffalo, NY
Well I hope there's a future in it. I've got another 12-15yrs before retirement is in sight. LOL! I work at a plant that processes H2 gas into cryogenic liquid H2. The plant has been in operation since the early 1980s and our product is typically sold out before we can make it. We purchase our crude H2 feedstock from nearby bleach and chlorine producing plants. The rest we extract from natural gas through steam-methane reformation. All these processes have been around for eons.

Mass quantities of liquid nitrogen are used as refrigeration. The LN2 that boils off is recycled back to the air sep plants (that we also have onsite) to go'round the loop again.

I think in very rough numbers we consume about 15 mega watts to make about 20 tons/day of liquid H2. This doesn't include the costs associated with the liquid N2. Nearly all the power usage is from the trains of compression equipment used to compress the gas at various stages of the process.

We're on basically 100% hydroelectric power and get it at a very low rate. It's the only reason the plant is where it is. We recycle all our lube oils and are pretty near a zero landfill company.

Last edited by JTK; 12/07/17 10:31 AM.

2017 Ram 1500 4x4, 3.6L. 2016 Nissan Quest SV (Babe magnet IV)
Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow] #4597022
12/07/17 10:34 AM
12/07/17 10:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,799
Marshfield , MA
andyd Online content
andyd  Online Content
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,799
Marshfield , MA
lotta process for 4KW


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

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Re: Hydrogen future [Re: JTK] #4597043
12/07/17 11:15 AM
12/07/17 11:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,268
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,268
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: JTK
I think in very rough numbers we consume about 15 mega watts to make about 20 tons/day of liquid H2. This doesn't include the costs associated with the liquid N2. Nearly all the power usage is from the trains of compression equipment used to compress the gas at various stages of the process.

We're on basically 100% hydroelectric power and get it at a very low rate. It's the only reason the plant is where it is. We recycle all our lube oils and are pretty near a zero landfill company.

Yeah, the unfavorable thermodynamics for hydrogen liquefaction are probably only exceeded by helium. It takes a tremendous amount of energy. Nitrogen is a whole lot easier.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
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Re: Hydrogen future [Re: kschachn] #4597079
12/07/17 11:50 AM
12/07/17 11:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,010
Buffalo, NY
JTK Offline
JTK  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,010
Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn

Yeah, the unfavorable thermodynamics for hydrogen liquefaction are probably only exceeded by helium. It takes a tremendous amount of energy. Nitrogen is a whole lot easier.


Indeed. Any time we need to go into the process that runs at or near LH2 temps for maintenance or repairs, we have to use He for a thaw/purge gas. It's the only gas that wont freeze solid at those temps and plug everything up. He is crazy expensive. We've been through 100's of thousands of dollars worth of it over the years.


2017 Ram 1500 4x4, 3.6L. 2016 Nissan Quest SV (Babe magnet IV)
Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Shannow] #4597169
12/07/17 01:50 PM
12/07/17 01:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,553
Silicon Valley
PandaBear Offline
PandaBear  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,553
Silicon Valley
I don't see how hydrogen will be more convenient or cost effective than running electrical wires around population, and I don't see how converting energy source into hydrogen and then using the hydrogen is better than other means, like pumping water up stream or chemical battery, or time of day electricity rate to encourage drying clothes, making ice, and charging EV at night.

The only reason I think Japan wants hydrogen is to introduce a demand for nuclear power plants or use nuclear power to crack hydrogen from water.


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Hydrogen future [Re: PandaBear] #4597234
12/07/17 03:06 PM
12/07/17 03:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,288
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,288
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I don't see how hydrogen will be more convenient or cost effective than running electrical wires around population, and I don't see how converting energy source into hydrogen and then using the hydrogen is better than other means, like pumping water up stream or chemical battery, or time of day electricity rate to encourage drying clothes, making ice, and charging EV at night.

The only reason I think Japan wants hydrogen is to introduce a demand for nuclear power plants or use nuclear power to crack hydrogen from water.


Fuel cells are not governed by Carnot.

If fuel cells can be part of a hybrid/bottoming cycle approach with IC, the net efficiencies get much higher.

If you can produce hydrogen from a liquid medium or hydrocarbon gas infrastructure (reformation), you can get generating efficiencies, low-load efficiencies, etc.

Like everything in engineering, there are trades. Storing H2 is difficult. Transporing it isnt much better. Doesnt mean other approaches wont help. People will get nowhere without trying.

Re: Hydrogen future [Re: JHZR2] #4597255
12/07/17 03:31 PM
12/07/17 03:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,674
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,674
Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Fuel cells are not governed by Carnot.



I always thought that real world Hydrogen PEM fuel cells are 50% efficient. But maybe they are better now. It's not the magic bullet some would have us believe.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Hydrogen future [Re: Cujet] #4597264
12/07/17 03:43 PM
12/07/17 03:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,288
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,288
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Fuel cells are not governed by Carnot.



I always thought that real world Hydrogen PEM fuel cells are 50% efficient. But maybe they are better now. It's not the magic bullet some would have us believe.


That's fair. Thus my mention of combined cycle and bottoming cycles. Dont forget to consider SOFC and MCFCs though...

The best diesels and GTs are where? 40-ish % at optimal load, with a falling off depending upon design? Move to something small/local/sub MW-scale, and those efficiencies drop pretty fast, while if parasitics are managed, the efficiencies are doable at small scale for fuel cells (and sometimes easier due to ease of insulation).

Im a believer in combined FC-GT or FC-diesel where the IC waste heat drives reformation. In smaller scales, I still am a believer in FCs for scalable combined heat and power if fed by hydrocarbons.


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