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Pre-Ignition and Knock #4594452
12/04/17 09:07 PM
12/04/17 09:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,297
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,297
ON, Canada eh?
A good video with a good explanation and excellent animations. Especially toward the end.



'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: StevieC] #4594473
12/04/17 09:42 PM
12/04/17 09:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,844
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,844
Kendall, FL
You're right, nice video. Thanks for sharing.


18 Sportage 2.4L AWD: Mobil1 Annual Protection 5W20 + Mobil1-104A + e air WIX10335
13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T: Pennzoil Platinum 10W30 + FRAM XG9688 + e air WIX49670

Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: StevieC] #4594581
12/05/17 02:46 AM
12/05/17 02:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Knock is the result of two flame fronts colliding with each other. One flame front is caused by fuel igniting by heat (pre-ignition); the other flame front is caused by the spark plug.

Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: Merkava_4] #4594606
12/05/17 04:34 AM
12/05/17 04:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Knock is the result of two flame fronts colliding with each other. One flame front is caused by fuel igniting by heat (pre-ignition); the other flame front is caused by the spark plug.


No it isn't

Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: StevieC] #4594611
12/05/17 04:51 AM
12/05/17 04:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 82
Denmark
UrS4 Offline
UrS4  Offline
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 82
Denmark
Oh yeah.. Then all engines with multiple sparkplugs per cylinder would grenade.
Nearly all petrol aircraft engines have two sparkplugs per cylinder....


1993 Audi S4 2.2 20V Turbo - German Castrol Edge FST 0W-40 - Mahle filter
Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: Merkava_4] #4594691
12/05/17 07:34 AM
12/05/17 07:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,432
New England
Virtus_Probi Online mad
Virtus_Probi  Online Mad
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,432
New England
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Knock is the result of two flame fronts colliding with each other. One flame front is caused by fuel igniting by heat (pre-ignition); the other flame front is caused by the spark plug.


In classic knock, the fuel is detonated by high heat/pressure...it's exploding, not burning.
I believe that the knocking sound can either be due to the detonation itself or the stress of the early detonation trying to drive the cylinder the "wrong way".
Even so, the knock system I worked on ages ago was tuned by our US OEM customer to try to keep their engines knocking extremely lightly, at a point where the driver heard and felt nothing unusual...they considered this to be the sweet spot for power and fuel efficiency.


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
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Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: StevieC] #4594862
12/05/17 10:34 AM
12/05/17 10:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,427
snowblind in TX
punisher Offline
punisher  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,427
snowblind in TX
I am really insufferable on this topic.

As Virtus Probi stated above "In classic knock, the fuel is detonated by high heat/pressure...it's exploding, not burning."

In the animation the only real bone to pick is that detonation happens (almost always) under the intake valve, not the exhaust valve. Seems counter intuitive, but the coldest part of the chamber is the most likely area for detonation to occur as mixture here ignites last. Remember detonation occurs late in the combustion phase when pressure and heat combine to change the composition of the fuel molecules and enable it to actually detonate. The resultant detonation (it really is an actual detonation) has enough velocity/force to blow off the boundary layer from the combustion surfaces exposing them to the full heat of the event. The piston always goes first. A section of the top ring land gets soft, and eventually makes its way out the exhaust valve.

A fuel's octane rating has nothing to do with it's burn rate....they are independent of each other. All an octane rating tells you is a fuel's resistance to detonating under heat/pressure. It says nothing about burn rate, or energy content of the fuel. Trimethylbutane baby!

Preignition is just bad timing like when Jr busts through the bedroom door with a card and interrupts your birthday present from the wife. Hole in the middle of a piston.....preignition. Torn up piston edge/ring land.....detonation. Preignition can be caused by any number of things. Hot spots, a chunk 'o carbon, or a miss timed ignition event (#5-#7 crossfire on older SBC/BBC for example). Detonation has to happen for awhile to damage anything. Preignition can kill a piston,or bend a rod, in a fraction of a second.

Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: punisher] #4594954
12/05/17 12:42 PM
12/05/17 12:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,940
Champlain/Hudson Valley
Kira Offline
Kira  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,940
Champlain/Hudson Valley
Posted this before:

We had a big hill near us. Rt.74 going west out of Ticonderoga, NY (toward I-87). We'd advance out timing so we'd just get a slight knock blasting up the hill.

Back then it was called Rt.73. Did all states seek to make E-W highways even numbered and N-S ones odd?

There are exceptions all over the place.

Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: Ducked] #4595119
12/05/17 02:40 PM
12/05/17 02:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: Ducked
No it isn't


Quote:
What is knocking?

During the propagation of flame front (after spark begins) the charge near the flame front expands which leads to further compression of end charge (charge which are away from the spark plug) which results in further increase in temperature of end charge. Due to this, if temperature of the end charge becomes equal to (or more than) self-ignition temperature of fuel, a separate secondary flame front will be formed. When this two flame fronts (primary and secondary flame front) collide, a very high energy wave is formed which affects engine performance and CC adversely, this phenomenon is called knocking.

LINK

Quote:
Whenever these colliding pressure fronts meet, their destructive power is unleashed on the engine parts, often leading to a mechanical destruction of the motor. The pinging sound of detonation is just these pressure waves pounding against the insides of the combustion chamber and piston top.

LINK

Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: Merkava_4] #4595338
12/05/17 06:38 PM
12/05/17 06:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Ducked
No it isn't


Quote:
What is knocking?

During the propagation of flame front (after spark begins) the charge near the flame front expands which leads to further compression of end charge (charge which are away from the spark plug) which results in further increase in temperature of end charge. Due to this, if temperature of the end charge becomes equal to (or more than) self-ignition temperature of fuel, a separate secondary flame front will be formed. When this two flame fronts (primary and secondary flame front) collide, a very high energy wave is formed which affects engine performance and CC adversely, this phenomenon is called knocking.

LINK

Quote:
Whenever these colliding pressure fronts meet, their destructive power is unleashed on the engine parts, often leading to a mechanical destruction of the motor. The pinging sound of detonation is just these pressure waves pounding against the insides of the combustion chamber and piston top.

LINK


You can find any amount of tosh on this topic on the internyet, so its quite hard to support any argument with a quick link.

The sources would have to be read carefully and critically to validate or refute them, I havn't had my coffee yet, and I'm not particularly qualified for the job. These ones might be fine, dunno.

But I can make one observation on one of them.

You're saying that knocking is due to colliding flame fronts, right?

The second sentence of your second reference goes

"The actual "knocking" or "ringing" sound of detonation is due to these pressure waves pounding against the insides of the combustion chamber and the piston top, and is not due to 'colliding flame fronts'" (my bolding)

Knocking is a synonym for detonation, i.e. the supersonic explosion of the fuel-air mixture, which produces a characteristic ringing of the engine structure.

Thats it. Thats what it is.

It "classically" follows spark ignition, but recent descriptions of LSPI suggest it can also be initiated by a pre-ignition event, which isn't all that surprising.

This doesn't remove or confuse the difference between pre-ignitiopn and knocking/detonation, but your original statement does.

Pre-ignition is ignition that occurs before the timed ignition by the spark.

Thats it. Thats what it is.

Last edited by Ducked; 12/05/17 06:45 PM.
Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: Kira] #4595530
12/05/17 10:26 PM
12/05/17 10:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,511
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,511
...
Originally Posted By: Kira
Posted this before:

We had a big hill near us. Rt.74 going west out of Ticonderoga, NY (toward I-87). We'd advance out timing so we'd just get a slight knock blasting up the hill.

Back then it was called Rt.73. Did all states seek to make E-W highways even numbered and N-S ones odd?

There are exceptions all over the place.





Kira, the Interstate Highway System was set up that way. Im not sure about State highways though. Interstates start at 5 on the West Coast and go up by number headed east. They start at 10 down south and go up to 90 in the north. Any triple number highway is considered a auxiliary or a spur or connector freeway.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Pre-Ignition and Knock [Re: Ducked] #4595656
12/06/17 05:11 AM
12/06/17 05:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Ducked


You can find any amount of tosh on this topic on the internyet, so its quite hard to support any argument with a quick link.



Originally Posted By: Merkava_4


What is knocking?

During the propagation of flame front (after spark begins) the charge near the flame front expands which leads to further compression of end charge .......etc etc.


I had a quick look at Your first reference

https://www.quora.com/What-is-meant-by-a-knocking-in-an-internal-combustion-engine

This is an open discussion forum, so its not peer-reviewed or quality controlled in any way. (Neither is the other one, but it seems OK). Just before the bit of his post you quote, the poster

Mayank Tiwari, who studied at Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi

Says "Uncontrolled combustion in Petrol engine is known as knocking and in Diesel engine its called as detonation. This is done to reduce the confusion."


This tends to put it in the tosh category, and suggests the source is a bit of a waste of bandwidth, though perhaps its good enough for trolling.



Last edited by Ducked; 12/06/17 05:21 AM.

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