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540RAT Blog #4592781
12/03/17 09:29 AM
12/03/17 09:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 117
Wichita, Kansas
vwalburn Offline OP
vwalburn  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 117
Wichita, Kansas
I know this Blog/Topic has been covered before here on Bobs' but I just read it and would like to find out if there is anything that you folks here can agree with him on. The whole Zinc Content in modern oils in a flat tappet engine is what brought me to this Blog. His testing methods are not known and I can see that issue with all of it. But, is there anything worth while in all of this?
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/


1996 Dodge Ram 1500
Valvoline MaxLife
2002 Honda Accord
Valvoline SynPower
2011 Chevrolet Equinox
Mobil1
1964 Pontiac GTO
Pennzoil 10W-40
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: vwalburn] #4592789
12/03/17 09:36 AM
12/03/17 09:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
Just read one of the other 30 page threads and produce a summary

Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: vwalburn] #4592792
12/03/17 09:43 AM
12/03/17 09:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,755
The Midwest
skyactiv Offline
skyactiv  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,755
The Midwest
I believe there is some validity to what he does, but he uses his own test methodology that doesn't correlate to established
scientific protocols. The one arm bandit shout out likes to surface out when he is mentioned. What I find interesting
is that some of the oils he test that reportedly provide excellent protection might have more modern formulations than
what can be seen in a VOA or UOA.


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: vwalburn] #4592793
12/03/17 09:44 AM
12/03/17 09:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,873
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,873
Upper Midwest
Its amazing how this topic rears its ugly head from time to time, often initiated with the disclaimer "I know this has been discussed before..."

Here is a thread on the topic:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4345004/1

There is no validity to his "results" whatsoever. When properly analyzed and presented all the oils test exactly the same.


1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: kschachn] #4592811
12/03/17 09:57 AM
12/03/17 09:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,559
SE Texas
2015_PSD Offline
2015_PSD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,559
SE Texas
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Its amazing how this topic rears its ugly head from time to time, often initiated with the disclaimer "I know this has been discussed before..." There is no validity to his "results" whatsoever. When properly analyzed and presented all the oils test exactly the same.
Agreed and did I not read that Dawn dishwashing soap would provide the same "protection" in his test?


2018 MB AMG GLC43 3.0L Coupe - Castrol 0W-40/Purflux
2018 MB C300 2.0L - M1 0W-40/OEM
2015 F-250 6.7L PS Diesel - Delo 15W-40/CQ Blue
2014 Explorer 3.5L Limited - M1 AFE 0W-20/FU
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: 2015_PSD] #4592823
12/03/17 10:03 AM
12/03/17 10:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
Yes, it was Head & Shoulders above Ö no wait, that was a winner too Ö

Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: vwalburn] #4592899
12/03/17 11:10 AM
12/03/17 11:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 169
AZ
ron17571 Offline
ron17571  Offline
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 169
AZ
I read something about High zink not being kind to catalytic converters. I use head and shoulders myself.


2003 Dodge Caravan 140.000 miles
1992 Ford f-250 217,000 miles
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: kschachn] #4592953
12/03/17 12:12 PM
12/03/17 12:12 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 257
So. Calif.
turnbowm Online content
turnbowm  Online Content
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 257
So. Calif.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
...There is no validity to his "results" whatsoever. When properly analyzed and presented all the oils test exactly the same.

Are you saying that all oils have the same film strength?


2015 Kia Optima EX 2.4L GDI
2015 Chevy Volt
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: turnbowm] #4592976
12/03/17 12:37 PM
12/03/17 12:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
He's saying that the results are all within the margin of error.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: Garak] #4592992
12/03/17 01:09 PM
12/03/17 01:09 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 257
So. Calif.
turnbowm Online content
turnbowm  Online Content
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 257
So. Calif.
Originally Posted By: Garak
He's saying that the results are all within the margin of error.

The oil film strength varied from less than 75,000psi to greater than 134,000 psi. I think that's significantly greater than the margin of error.


2015 Kia Optima EX 2.4L GDI
2015 Chevy Volt
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: turnbowm] #4593009
12/03/17 01:43 PM
12/03/17 01:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,873
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,873
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
The oil film strength varied from less than 75,000psi to greater than 134,000 psi. I think that's significantly greater than the margin of error.

No. You're falling into the same trap everyone else apparently wishes to fall into in regards to this data.

The published expected error of ASTM D2782 for gear oils is 30%. Since Rat gives no data showing his precision, we have no choice but to go his with published values. It's actually worse than that since Rat does not use the actual ASTM equipment, therefore there is no known precision for his equipment. His highest values are also outside the bounds of the testing ability of the ASTM tester.

The whole thing is a complete load of nonsense.



This graph was prepared by ZeeOSix and is credited to him. This is the proper presentation and analysis of all of Rat's data at the time the graph was prepared.

Raw data is always meaningless until it is properly and correctly analyzed and presented. As user edhackett correctly pointed out:



1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: turnbowm] #4593078
12/03/17 02:58 PM
12/03/17 02:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: kschachn
...There is no validity to his "results" whatsoever. When properly analyzed and presented all the oils test exactly the same.

Are you saying that all oils have the same film strength?


OK, define "film strength", and what it means in your engine !

Where in the engine have the designers used "film strength" ?

He's measuring the wear scar at failure, measuring it optically (errors galore there), calculating an area (yet another source of major errors when the shape isn't known properly) and then applying the test load to come up with a "pressure", that he calls "film strength" to 6 significant figures.

Now HOW is this measurement of failed boundary lubrication additive test even describable as "film strength" ?

Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: turnbowm] #4593080
12/03/17 02:59 PM
12/03/17 02:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
I think that's significantly greater than the margin of error.


Think because you know ?

Or think because you want to believe ?

Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: Shannow] #4593096
12/03/17 03:17 PM
12/03/17 03:17 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 257
So. Calif.
turnbowm Online content
turnbowm  Online Content
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 257
So. Calif.
Originally Posted By: Shannow

...OK, define "film strength", and what it means in your engine !

This is one definition...

The film strength of a lubricant is it's ability to withstand the affects of load, speed and temperature without breaking down. An unbroken film between lubricated surfaces is critical in preventing wear. A common industry test to measure a lubricant's film strength, and at which point it fails, is the Falex test.


2015 Kia Optima EX 2.4L GDI
2015 Chevy Volt
Re: 540RAT Blog [Re: turnbowm] #4593102
12/03/17 03:25 PM
12/03/17 03:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Shannow

...OK, define "film strength", and what it means in your engine !

This is one definition...

The film strength of a lubricant is it's ability to withstand the affects of load, speed and temperature without breaking down. An unbroken film between lubricated surfaces is critical in preventing wear. A common industry test to measure a lubricant's film strength, and at which point it fails, is the Falex test.


The "pressure" is still the wear scar at failure...i.e. the lubricant has already lost it's ability to lubricate.

But seeing as you brought up the Falex....

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/616/gear-drive-lubricants

Quote:
Enclosed gear drives operate in three regimes of lubrication: full fluid film, mixed film and boundary lubrication conditions. The ideal regime of lubrication for enclosed gear drives is full fluid film lubrication, where the industrial gear lubricantís viscosity is sufficient enough to provide separation of the mating surfaces of the gears and bearings. Full fluid film is generally formed under conditions of light loads. As loads and pressures increase, mixed film lubrication exists, where the load is partially supported by the pressure developed in the lubricant film and partially by the contacting surfaces of the gears and bearings. Under mixed film conditions, the fluid film is pressurized but it is too thin to avoid contact of the highest asperities of opposing surfaces. As loads and pressures further increase, this thin fluid film ruptures and boundary lubrication conditions exist. This is where metal-to-metal contact can occur.

Gear Wear Protection
In many industrial applications, enclosed gear drives are subjected to high loads, due either to their design or being used in applications for which they are underrated. All of these conditions can subject the industrial gear drive to operate under increased power densities. These higher power density loads are the direct result of increased horsepower and torque being applied to the gear drive. These conditions can result in increased stress on the gears and bearings that can lead to accelerated wear. Therefore, it is important that the industrial gear lubricant being used has the ability to protect against abnormal gear and bearing wear, scoring, spalling and pitting, especially when high-load conditions are encountered. This protection against wear is achieved by the use of antiwear and/or extreme pressure additive systems in the formulation of the industrial gear lubricant and, in some cases, by the addition of solid lubricants such as molybdenum disulfide, graphite, borates and oil soluble organomolybdenum compounds.

Extreme pressure and antiwear additives prevent metal-to-metal contact by adding film-forming compounds that protect the surface either by a physical absorption or a chemical reaction with the metal surface in order to form a low shear film at the point of contact.

Several tests measure an industrial gear lubricantís antiwear and extreme pressure properties. Such test methods used to evaluate an industrial gear lubricant antiwear and extreme pressure properties include:

Four Ball EP ASTM D2783
Four Ball Wear Test ASTM D4172
Falex Continuous Load ASTM D3233
FZG ASTM D5182, DIN 51 354
Timken EP Test ASTM D2783
The load wear index is an index of the ability of a lubricant to prevent wear at applied loads, while the weld point is the lowest applied load at which the sliding surfaces of four steel balls seize and weld together.


RAT's test equipment falls squarely in the above, applicable to gear lubes after hydrodynamics are well and truly lost to contact loads.

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