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Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! #4592550
12/02/17 11:06 PM
12/02/17 11:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,314
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Offline OP
StevieC  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,314
ON, Canada eh?
https://www.ft.com/content/f5593480-d29a-11e7-8c9a-d9c0a5c8d5c9


Quote:
NOVEMBER 27, 2017 Peter Campbell and Nathalie Thomas in London 219 comments
One of Europe’s leading energy consultancies has estimated that Tesla’s electric haulage truck will require the same power as up to 4,000 homes to recharge, calculations that raise questions over the project’s viability. 

The US electric carmaker unveiled a battery-powered truck earlier this month, promising haulage drivers they could add 400 miles of charge in as little as 30 minutes using a new “megacharger” to be made by the company. 

John Feddersen, chief executive of Aurora Energy Research, a consultancy set up in 2013 by a group of Oxford university professors, said the power required for the megacharger to fill a battery in that amount of time would be 1,600 kilowatts.

That is the equivalent of providing power for 3,000-4,000 “average” houses, he told a London conference last week, and is 10 times as powerful as Tesla’s current network of “superchargers” for its electric cars. 

Tesla declined to comment on the calculations.

Elon Musk, Tesla’s chief executive, has previously said the megachargers would be solar-powered but the company has not confirmed whether they will also have a grid connection for when it is not sunny.

Many of Tesla’s current superchargers are powered in part by renewable energy. The company is also experimenting with storage batteries to ease demands on the grid. 

Mr Feddersen used the example of the Tesla truck to highlight the need for greater debate around how grid infrastructure will need to be adapted to meet demand for electric vehicles. 

“There are smart and dumb ways to incorporate this level of capacity requirement into the system, but either way, fully electrified road transport will need a large amount of new infrastructure,” he told the Financial Times. 

Other experts in battery technology have claimed that charging a truck in half an hour would require technology exceeding anything available.

“The fastest chargers today can support up to around 450kW charging, so it’s not clear yet how Tesla will achieve their desired charging speeds,” said Colin McKerracher, head of advanced transport at Bloomberg New Energy Finance, a consultancy. “One option may be to segment the battery somehow and actually charge different segments simultaneously. This adds additional costs and we haven't seen anything like that done at anywhere near this power output.”

National Grid, which oversees Britain’s electricity system, has suggested that in the most extreme scenario, electric vehicles could create as much as 18 gigawatts of additional demand for power at peak times in the UK by 2050. 

This is the equivalent capacity of nearly six nuclear power stations on the scale of the Hinkley Point project under construction in the south-west of England. 

Industry experts believe strains on the system could be reduced by using “smart chargers” that only re-boot vehicle batteries when the grid is able to cope, rather than at peak times, such as after work.

Last edited by StevieC; 12/02/17 11:06 PM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592553
12/02/17 11:16 PM
12/02/17 11:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Here's what I posted 10 days before that...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4577295/Re:_New_Tesla_Truck_-_500mi_Ra#Post4577295

Musk/Tesla not commenting on what's simply fundamental math (or coming out with what exactly their amazing new technology) is PT Barnum behaviour at it's best.

I get ragged as a luddite naysayer, but facts are facts...

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Here's the tractive effort curves from Cummins...
https://cumminsengines.com/uploads/docs/cummins_secrets_of_better_fuel_economy.pdf



Given the close coupled electric motors, say 200hp for a first approximation...150KW makes the math easier.

500 miles at 60 miles per hour is 8.3 hours...1.25MWh of storage...

Six of these...mira alto substation has nearly 400 of these cubicles at 210KWh each...



https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4577260/%22Gas%22_Station_of_the#Post4577260

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592558
12/02/17 11:34 PM
12/02/17 11:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,309
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,309
PNW
Half the "gross vehicle weight" will probably be the battery bank. What's the supposed max load weight and range before a recharge is needed? And recharge time? ... gotta be a while.

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592559
12/02/17 11:34 PM
12/02/17 11:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Re the solar powered claim...
I looked up Central Tech Stadium, in Toronto...(It's in Bathurst Street, I drive around Bathurst a few times per year - next town along).

Using google Maps, there's a total of 15,000 square metres available to play with.

Using
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/18366

And 25% efficient solar cells, gives 1KWh of electricity available for every one of those square metres, making it a potential 15MWh per day generating station...enough for 12 trucks on my calcs, or 10 on the linked article.

OF COURSE it has to be grid connected...to throw it into batteries and then reclaim it loses 10% up front, and costs of the order of 25c/KWh round trip.
https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-storage-analysis-20/

But assuming he is battery focused...which he appears to be, needs to find a spot for 72 of those refigerator looking batteries, and drop the number of vehicles that can be fueled by one...

But, as they keep saying, technology will fix all those things...

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: ZeeOSix] #4592560
12/02/17 11:35 PM
12/02/17 11:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Half the "load" will probably be the battery bank. What's the supposed max load weight and range before a recharge is needed? And recharge time? ... gotta be a while.


Go to StevieC's original thread (my first link)...that's the stamtent of claims from Tesla...80,000lb, 500 miles, recharge in minutes (not days)

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592561
12/02/17 11:36 PM
12/02/17 11:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,301
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,301
New Jersey
I don't buy that 1.6MW is 3-4000 homes but maybe....

I do think that hybrids would benefit heavy trucks in the long run, especially garbage, delivery, and similar trucks that start and stop. Electric tractors like the one in discussion may be useful for inner city and high traffic areas where idling and starting/stopping/varying load diesels contribute to pollution.

I can't see that this is a solution for most mainstream OTR trucking. I haven't read enough to see that it's definitely being sold that way. 400 miles could be six hours of interstate or a couple days of local deliveries at far lower average speed.

High low end electric torque, smaller engines, and electric braking might benefit OTR trucking as well, as battery and power electronics densify, but I'll believe that when I see it.

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: JHZR2] #4592568
12/02/17 11:52 PM
12/02/17 11:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Here's Musk's Claim...
Quote:
As The Verge reports, the Tesla Semi promises to deliver a 500-mile range on a single charge. To be clear, that's 500 miles driving with 80,000 pounds of cargo loaded in the back. While carrying all that weight the Semi can reach speeds of 65mph up a 5 percent grade climb (diesel trucks only manage 45mph) and the Semi easily out-accelerates a diesel truck regardless of the weight being carried.

Other impressive features Musk divulged included a 400-mile range achieved with only a 30-minute charge. Four independent motors on the rear axles allow Tesla to make it impossible for the Semi to jackknife. It also means you'll never have to change the brake pads, as most of the kinetic braking energy gets fed back into the battery rather than wearing the pads down. ....

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592569
12/02/17 11:55 PM
12/02/17 11:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,545
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,545
...
The big question is of course, how much will this truck cost? Then you get into figuring the cost per mile/km and calculate that into the costs of shipping. I’m guessing that freight charges will go up.

Perhaps Musk is counting on subsidies or credits for companies to buy electric trucks?

I like the hybrid idea better. I wonder how a diesel electric truck would work out? It worked for ships and locomotives


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592570
12/02/17 11:56 PM
12/02/17 11:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Re the 3-4,000 homes, agree, it's more like 1,000 homes daily consumption.

Even the 2MW transfer rate to shift 1 MWh in 30 minutes, is still only about 700 homes peak draw rate.

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: PimTac] #4592571
12/03/17 12:00 AM
12/03/17 12:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: PimTac
The big question is of course, how much will this truck cost? Then you get into figuring the cost per mile/km and calculate that into the costs of shipping. I’m guessing that freight charges will go up.


Musk's numbers
Quote:
As for economics, Musk broke it down to a cost per mile. Simply put, a diesel truck costs $1.51 per mile travelled taking into account the total cost of operation. The Tesla Semi only costs $1.26 per mile, and that's carrying 80,000 pounds and travelling at an average speed of 60mph.


Look at the costs of operating a truck...
http://www.freightmetrics.com.au/Calculators/TruckOperatingCostCalculator/tabid/104/Default.aspx

I think he's banking on at least free electricity.

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: Shannow] #4592573
12/03/17 12:02 AM
12/03/17 12:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,545
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,545
...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Re the 3-4,000 homes, agree, it's more like 1,000 homes daily consumption.

Even the 2MW transfer rate to shift 1 MWh in 30 minutes, is still only about 700 homes peak draw rate.





Shannow, you’re gonna need a bigger one of these.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-07/what-is-tesla-big-sa-battery-and-how-will-it-work/8688992


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: PimTac] #4592588
12/03/17 12:25 AM
12/03/17 12:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,576
'Stralia
It went into service this week.

5% of the peak capacity for 5% of a day...pretty impressive eh ?

No release on how much the SA Govt spend on it other than it was part of their $550M "plan"...so I can only work of Lazard when trying to crunch the numbers.

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592608
12/03/17 01:14 AM
12/03/17 01:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
OneEyeJack Offline
OneEyeJack  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
With this new technology is it better for the government to pick the winner or the free market?

Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592615
12/03/17 01:53 AM
12/03/17 01:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,955
Ca.
UncleDave Online content
UncleDave  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,955
Ca.
Think about how much electricity is already piped into your basic a wall mart center - this truck wont be too much of a burden.


UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Tesla Truck will need power of 4,000 homes! [Re: StevieC] #4592663
12/03/17 05:47 AM
12/03/17 05:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,995
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,995
NY
Initially it seemed impressive, and I figured there had to be a catch. Bottom line there's no free lunch.


God Bless Our Troops

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