Wanna take on an F-35

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Want to compete with an F-35 using a cheap plane that was developed on a reasonable budget, on time and has all the same network capable electronics, can out fly the F-35 in every way such performance can be analyzed, can land on a dirt road and be maintained in the field without one special tool? You can also swap an engine in one hour with two standard squadron service people in a field instead of many more specially trained F-35 service people not normally assigned to a squadron but to a depot in a dedicated shop with specialized tools in an undisclosed time because of the reassembly of stealth panels.

Meet the Gripen E, an interesting alternative to the F-35. It can't do VTOL but it's STOL abilities on dirt roads that would scare a Cessna pilot keep things simple and such performance can also be very useful in forward deployments much closer to the fight than one would ever see a fragile F-35.

Interesting.....
 
There's no way that Gripen could come close to matching the F35's stealth capabilities with that canard, IMHO.
There was a huge controversy about the "expensive and complicated" F16 in the early days of that program, with some in Congress pushing for the purchase of a larger number of "simple" F20 Tigersharks instead. I think the F16 has been an incredibly successful plane and doubt the Tigershark would have been a better choice.

With that said, I am deeply concerned that too many differing and antagonistic requirements were crammed into the F35 program and that some of the severe teething problems that were seen with the similarly "jack of all trades" F4 Phantom will likely be experienced again. We do need to remember that the F35 was not developed as a pure dogfighter and also that the F117 was pretty good at sneaking in and knocking out heavily defended sites without being a great high g performer. Yes, I do wish that an F35 could take on an F22 on even terms in a air battle, but that's probably asking just too much...
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
There's no way that Gripen could come close to matching the F35's stealth capabilities with that canard, IMHO.


There's no claim that the Gripen is a stealth plane.

There are practical matters here. Most current "wars" are close in, activity intensive local battles. Practical matters are better solved with the Gripen when you consider the cost of doing business. The high flying standoff battles are not the problem facing our military. Look at the rise of the flying tank called the A-10. You could not advance your career flying one but you sure could bring the fight to the enemy and become the ground troops best friend. Somewhere in between is where the Gripen will fly and a flying, serviced, well placed Gripen that actually fits into the system would be very useful.

And then there's the hole in the system called the lack of an F-14 for the fleet. If the F-14 replacement does not show up soon I'd sleep with a life jacket on if I was a crewman on an aircraft carrier. The replacement is not the F-35. Wake up Grumman and get that next generation F-14 super, super Tomcat out to the fleet.
 
I think they've got to stick the with the F35 for its combination of stealth and performance. At some point in the future, avoiding detection is going to be the way a fighter survives. Until then a Gripen or something else would be fine, but giving up the lead in the military technology race isn't a great idea given what Russia and especially China are capable of developing and manufacturing.
 
Personally, I think there is room for both.

I keep thinking back to WW2. There were tanks that were superior to the M4 Sherman. But could they be built in sufficient quantities?

Quantity has a certain quality to it.

Think of some of the conflicts Israel saw in the 1960s and 1970s. Being able to repair a tank and get it back into service was crucial to Israeli victories.

It's not just strategy and tactics that win wars. Logistics plays a big role in victory.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Personally, I think there is room for both.

I keep thinking back to WW2. There were tanks that were superior to the M4 Sherman. But could they be built in sufficient quantities?

Quantity has a certain quality to it.

Think of some of the conflicts Israel saw in the 1960s and 1970s. Being able to repair a tank and get it back into service was crucial to Israeli victories.

It's not just strategy and tactics that win wars. Logistics plays a big role in victory.


I would say that intelligence is more important than anything. If you can get in and out of an AOR and not be seen, all the while seeing much, then you're better off than your enemy.
 
Our flight department operates the mighty Gulfstream G650. Nearly 30 years ago, I operated a Gulfstream III.

Sure, the G650 is way better, plus it's bigger and a touch faster. However, they compare quite favorably to each other in outright power, climb rate and speed. For all our "bragging" we really have not achieved much in the way of outright performance.

The G-III would hit 0.94M in level flight at middling altitudes, during engine thrust testing. Yesterday, we hit 0.93 in level flight with the G650.

My point is that outright performance was achieved years ago. Today, it's the other things that make the difference.
 
Stealth is the big thing.
Also, forget all this, UCAVs are taking over anyway. Look for a UCAV version of the F-35 in the future.
 
I can't remember which documentary I think History channel, but at the start of desert storm the F-117A was sent in first. The Iraqi army couldn't see it. Supposedly they only had to send a few F-117As for a huge fleet of other aircraft.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
At some point in the future, avoiding detection is going to be the way a fighter survives.


Future? That need is here now.

The F-35 is the last "manned" fighter anyone will develop.
I predict by 2045 every fighter and bomber will be unmanned.
 
Originally Posted By: 97prizm
I can't remember which documentary I think History channel, but at the start of desert storm the F-117A was sent in first. The Iraqi army couldn't see it. Supposedly they only had to send a few F-117As for a huge fleet of other aircraft.


Yep - all they needed to target is/was the radar sites (very, very easy to find)

once the radar is gone, sent in almost whatever you want.

In the future, that "Initial entry" will be handled by unmanned stealth aircraft.
 
Obviously unmanned is the future. And honestly, we should be putting our money there. What if the Chinese built thousands and thousands of cheap, easily built and replaced drones? Nothing could stop them. We could perhaps shoot down hundreds of them, but the shear numbers would make them unstoppable.

Our insistence on spending $30 mil, $50 mil, $100 mil per plane is the 1980's way of dealing with Russia. Russia is in the past. We need to worry about North Korea and China now.
 
There is room for both and still room for the Warthogs and others - horses for courses …

Many times in my life a new equipment entry reminds me of the old “Fish & Ski” boat = never was great at either … but if you only wanted one “money pit” … If you want it to be great at everything … it’s not cheap!
 
My big worry is that satisfying the STOVL requirement for one version of the F35 is going to compromise the performance of the whole line...I think that should have been done in a separate aircraft, but I guess it probably just wouldn't have been done then.

We were lucky in WWII that the German engineers just couldn't stop mucking with things...they would have endless variants of everything that were not really needed and made maintenance a nightmare. They would take a great performing design and then push it to be perfect while compromising production or maintenance...the weight of the Panther kept inching up to the point that production versions were supposed to be returned TO GERMANY after 600 MILES of use for an overhaul because the drive elements were so overstressed. The Tiger II and its Jagdpanzer variant were unbelievably powerful and well protected but could barely move, and they also spent so many resources on stupid things like the Maus and even heavier "supertanks" that probably could have shattered even thick concrete roads.
The Sherman was a world beater in '42 and nearly obsolete in late '44 because the US Army got lax and didn't keep up with the rapid upgrades the rest of the combatants were making to their armored vehicles. But, it was a highly producible and maintainable design and they could take knocked out vehicles and get them back on the battlefield unbelievably quickly as long as they weren't burned out...the German capability at that was minimal by comparison and I'm sure they tore their hair out because repaired vehicles might not be completely up to spec!!

My dad was in the 2nd Armored and told me that they dealt with Tigers and Panthers by presenting them with a wide variety of targets while a couple of the Shermans would maneuver to get behind them and knock them out with a shot where the armor was thinner. Of course, some of those targets usually got knocked out before the German tanks were dealt with. Even a pitifully obsolete 57mm antitank gun might be handy for shooting out a track to make it easier for a German tank to be flanked...of course, US soldiers were being exposed to higher chances of being wounded or killed because their equipment was not up to date, but they still went out and did their jobs. Read Belton Cooper's "Death Traps" to see how angry some soldiers were still about this decades after WWII...
 
F35 pilot will fly up the Gripen's pilot arse and tickle the inside of
his eye ball and he won't know the score until he is pharting warhead...

d2636184.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi


We were lucky in WWII that the German engineers just couldn't stop mucking with things...


We are lucky the WW2 German engineers never stopped dreaming and experimenting because they foretold the future...


Axial Flow Compressor Jumo 004
jumbo%20004.jpg


Stealth Horten HO 229
hitlers-stealth-flying-wing-bomber.jpg


Jet powered Interceptors
RLM-Messerschmitt-Me-262-lg.jpg


ICBM
Takom%2BV-2%2B%25281%2529.jpg


Cruise Missiles
840d00ef78d346a82aae78f0dc5f65d8--cruise-missile-aviation-art.jpg


Smart Bomb
Fritz X radio-guided bomb
1200px-Fritz_X_side.jpg


Wire guided missile
ruhrstahl_x_4_german_ww2_aa_missle-3d-model-21375-865444.jpg


Rocket powered
me-163-2.jpg


Swept wings
focke_wulf_ta_183_huckebein_ww2_german_jet_by_spirit_knight-d8x74fx.jpg


Forward Swept wings Junkers Ju 287
Ju_287_10.jpg


Delta Wings Lippisch DM-1
GermanTriangleCraft.jpg



Variable swept wing Messerschmitt P 1101
mep1101.jpg


I could go on and on...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
F35 pilot will fly up the Gripen's pilot arse and tickle the inside of
his eye ball and he won't know the score until he is pharting warhead...

d2636184.jpg



Your pic needs the caption: "Because I was inverted"
grin.gif
 
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