Recent Topics
Nasty looking oil filter
by atikovi. 09/21/18 12:43 PM
Laughing hard.
by StevieC. 09/21/18 12:26 PM
Apologies
by Drew99GT. 09/21/18 12:15 PM
Would Like the Manual Transmission to Make a Comeback?
by Speak2Mountain. 09/21/18 11:39 AM
Leaf Mulcher
by kwijibo. 09/21/18 11:32 AM
Pizza dough too crusty
by zorobabel. 09/21/18 11:26 AM
Lubegard Red or Platinum
by diyjake. 09/21/18 11:01 AM
Storing Car Outside
by Delta. 09/21/18 10:47 AM
Looking at a cheap commuter!
by ryan2022. 09/21/18 09:46 AM
Does Your 3.5EB Make Oil
by Gene K. 09/21/18 09:07 AM
F150 Front Differential
by hatt. 09/21/18 08:45 AM
EU version of Subaru 2.5 FB engine
by IMPALA08. 09/21/18 08:40 AM
New “rules” changing your choice of car?
by daves87rs. 09/21/18 06:04 AM
WIX51334XP Oil Filters
by CB900F2. 09/21/18 05:14 AM
Signal Oil Company radio advertising
by 21Rouge. 09/21/18 04:07 AM
Anyone "Wim Hof"ing ?
by Shannow. 09/21/18 02:35 AM
New R1250GS and R1250RT
by 02SE. 09/21/18 12:55 AM
Inside Break Booster & Master Cylinder
by StevieC. 09/20/18 11:22 PM
Newest Members
ScottRousell, Direct_Rejection, donatom, Sylent_Snyper, Ajizzle
66034 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
106 registered members (ArazelEternal, atikovi, Balrog006, ArrestMeRedZ, 2010Civic, 10 invisible), 1,749 guests, and 37 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics290,764
Posts4,849,926
Members66,034
Most Online3,590
Jan 24th, 2017
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
recording of cycles and hours on a plane #4588707
11/29/17 12:24 PM
11/29/17 12:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 775
Cincinnati, OH USA
CincyDavid Offline OP
CincyDavid  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 775
Cincinnati, OH USA
So, I suppose cycles are recorded in flight logs of some sort, but are hours recorded on a simple hour meter somewhere on the aircraft like the one on my riding mower, or are hours calculated via some other method?

A recent post about Iranian 747s got me thinking that if record-keeping was iffy, you could "shave" hours just like turning back a car's odometer.


06 Kia Sportage EX greenish gold(ugliest color ever)
11 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited HEMI Mineral Gray
14 Honda Accord LX metallic black
17 VW Jetta SE black
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4588742
11/29/17 12:51 PM
11/29/17 12:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
There isn't any actual "Hobbs" meter on most older, large aircraft -

But E V E R Y T H I N G is tracked by computer now. EVERYTHING! (even G loads when landing or in a storm)


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4588834
11/29/17 01:54 PM
11/29/17 01:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,664
Charlotte, NC
Oldmoparguy1 Offline
Oldmoparguy1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,664
Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted By: CincyDavid
So, I suppose cycles are recorded in flight logs of some sort, but are hours recorded on a simple hour meter somewhere on the aircraft like the one on my riding mower, or are hours calculated via some other method?

A recent post about Iranian 747s got me thinking that if record-keeping was iffy, you could "shave" hours just like turning back a car's odometer.

nearly impossible to cheat on hours.

There were Hobbs meters in our GA aircraft. We had engine log books for maintenance, A/C log books for airframe maintenance, all entries showed date-time and meter hours. In My personal log book I recorded date, time destination and hours. In addition to that, the aircraft had regular 100 hour inspections and a yearly "annual" inspection, with the shop recording the hours as well. With Any failed inspection, the plane was grounded until repairs were done.

I think I got that right, it's been a while.


A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
If Noah had used Zip, he could have used a smaller boat.
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4588951
11/29/17 03:25 PM
11/29/17 03:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 775
Cincinnati, OH USA
CincyDavid Offline OP
CincyDavid  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 775
Cincinnati, OH USA
Are the recording requirements a world-wide thing, a US thing, a First World thing? Point being, will a Cessna 172 in rural Bolivia, or Africa, or Iran have a logbook and other records that are relatively legitimate, as compared to those in a 172 at Lunken Airport?


06 Kia Sportage EX greenish gold(ugliest color ever)
11 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited HEMI Mineral Gray
14 Honda Accord LX metallic black
17 VW Jetta SE black
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: Oldmoparguy1] #4588953
11/29/17 03:28 PM
11/29/17 03:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,843
Ontario Canada
cjcride Online content
cjcride  Online Content
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,843
Ontario Canada
That's how I remember it too.

Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4588991
11/29/17 04:09 PM
11/29/17 04:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,518
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,518
The Motor City
When aircraft parts come into my lab, I also receive the following information:
- total number of take offs and landings
- number of take offs and landings since overhaul
- total hours of flight
- hours of flight since overhaul
This is for commercial aircraft, including French, Japanese, and other airlines. So, this information is indeed documented. Though I don't know how it's tallied.

Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4589078
11/29/17 05:39 PM
11/29/17 05:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,897
Utah
CKN Online content
CKN  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,897
Utah
I just have this assumption if your flying a second or third world airline-it's probably not the safest thing to do.

I have heard after U.S. airlines are done with their airplanes...they are sent "over there".

I could be wrong........

Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4589134
11/29/17 06:46 PM
11/29/17 06:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,706
Southeastern USA
FowVay Offline
FowVay  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,706
Southeastern USA
I build jet engines for a living and am a rotor shop inspector on the GE CF-6 engine. All of the life-limited parts are tracked based on time and cycles but life limits are cycle specific only. Different thrust rated engines will have different limits for the exact same part also. For example, a turbine disk may have a life limit of 20,000 cycles if run in a CF6-80C2B6F on a B767 but that same disk will be limited to 15,000 cycles if used on a CF6-80C2D1F. The difference being the load on the engine during operation. The B6F would be powering a B767 twin engine jet and the D1F would be powering a tri-engine MD-11 which is a bigger jet. A lower thrust B1F or a simple B6 non-FADEC on a 747 has the least amount of load and therefore the longest service life.

For record keeping all builds have a minimum cycle for the module and this is dictated by the lowest cycles remaining for each component. Actual number of hours in operation is irrelevant. I often see cargo aircraft components with total cycles that nearly dictate the total hours and this indicates that the plane makes approximate 1 hour flights. For long haul international aircraft it's a general 10 hours run time for each cycle accumulated.

The record keeping on these components and engine modules is a nightmare. I often review build decks for my modules that are stacked 2 feet high. Every single piece of paper has to be accurate and every single life limited part must have back-to-birth documents showing where every single cycle was accumulated, in what engine and by what operator. Engine records is an entire division of their own at my company and we work hand-in-hand with records, engineering, customer representatives and the shop to ensure that when the final engine is built that every component is approved for use and acceptable to any of the dozens of worldwide aviation authorities that the engine will be operated under. It's not a simple job but it is fairly rewarding.


Quaker State across the board.
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4589348
11/29/17 10:09 PM
11/29/17 10:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,427
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,427
Jupiter, Florida
In the case of the Gulfstream G650 aircraft, the flight time is recorded via the 3 FMS's (flight management system) . The clock starts on wheels up and stops when the landing gear makes contact. Every landing is a cycle. A "go-around" is also a cycle.

In the case of my Cessna 177RG, the tach is mechanically driven from the engine. It has what amounts to an odometer in it. The hour-meter will count an hour ONLY if the engine is operating at 2556 RPM. If I were to fly an hour trip at 1700RPM the tach will record about 2/3 of an hour. (can't do this as that's a prohibited RPM for my engine though) Over the years, it's pretty close to accurate. T/O + climb are 2700, cruise 2500 and descent around 2300-2500, landing varies around 2000.

In the case of the EC135 heli, it counts flight hours digitally when the collective is up. It counts cycles by some absurd and impossible to understand formula based on engine temperature and RPM of the gas generator. The gas generator will have maybe 0.687 cycles after one takeoff to landing flight, and the power turbine will have 0.524 cycles. Seems absurd, as the Turbomeca engines blow up regularly, well before it's time to retire parts.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: FowVay] #4589792
11/30/17 12:47 PM
11/30/17 12:47 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,665
Columbus,Nebraska
Yah-Tah-Hey Offline
Yah-Tah-Hey  Offline
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,665
Columbus,Nebraska
Originally Posted By: FowVay
I build jet engines for a living and am a rotor shop inspector on the GE CF-6 engine. All of the life-limited parts are tracked based on time and cycles but life limits are cycle specific only. Different thrust rated engines will have different limits for the exact same part also. For example, a turbine disk may have a life limit of 20,000 cycles if run in a CF6-80C2B6F on a B767 but that same disk will be limited to 15,000 cycles if used on a CF6-80C2D1F. The difference being the load on the engine during operation. The B6F would be powering a B767 twin engine jet and the D1F would be powering a tri-engine MD-11 which is a bigger jet. A lower thrust B1F or a simple B6 non-FADEC on a 747 has the least amount of load and therefore the longest service life.

For record keeping all builds have a minimum cycle for the module and this is dictated by the lowest cycles remaining for each component. Actual number of hours in operation is irrelevant. I often see cargo aircraft components with total cycles that nearly dictate the total hours and this indicates that the plane makes approximate 1 hour flights. For long haul international aircraft it's a general 10 hours run time for each cycle accumulated.

The record keeping on these components and engine modules is a nightmare. I often review build decks for my modules that are stacked 2 feet high. Every single piece of paper has to be accurate and every single life limited part must have back-to-birth documents showing where every single cycle was accumulated, in what engine and by what operator. Engine records is an entire division of their own at my company and we work hand-in-hand with records, engineering, customer representatives and the shop to ensure that when the final engine is built that every component is approved for use and acceptable to any of the dozens of worldwide aviation authorities that the engine will be operated under. It's not a simple job but it is fairly rewarding.
I wish I could have spent my working years doing what you are doing. Like the very close attention to detail required to assure safety. Nothing in one hundred percent, but I think I am safe in saying the USA wrote to book on anything airplane. smile

Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4590857
12/01/17 11:49 AM
12/01/17 11:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,475
Arkansas
Win Offline
Win  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,475
Arkansas
Quote:
are hours recorded on a simple hour meter somewhere on the aircraft like the one on my riding mower, or are hours calculated via some other method?



I think it depends on the Hobbs meter. You need to give us more facts.

Hobbs meters that run off oil pressure are inaccurate unless the engine is making power and a minimum oil pressure. So, idling, taxiing, adds little time to the meter. Otherwise people could kill the master and kill the counter so TBO would come a lot later, or never come .... I suppose it averages out over time to be more or less accurate. I had oil pressure drop to zero one flight, but the engine and Hobbs kept running, so I didn't worry much about it. A wire had become detached from a sender for the electric pressure gauge.

I have some Hobbs meters that run whenever AC is applied. I use those to measure elapsed time on electronic equipment.

I have no idea how the digital counter works on my John Deere. I suspect it is a real elapsed time meter that runs whenever DC is applied and the ignition system is operating. I pay no attention to it.


09 Torrent 3.6 V6 M1 0/40
09 Solstice 2.4 I4 Fram 5/30
08 G8 3.6 V6 Fram 5/30
04 Xj8 4.2 V8 Hav 5/40
99 S-10 2.2 I4 RECOVERED
94 Xj12 6.0 V12
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4590885
12/01/17 12:08 PM
12/01/17 12:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 775
Cincinnati, OH USA
CincyDavid Offline OP
CincyDavid  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 775
Cincinnati, OH USA
I think it depends on the Hobbs meter. You need to give us more facts.

I didn't have any facts at all, it was just a general question with minimal knowledge on my part. The responses have been interesting to me, I appreciate everyone's input. I had a Buick Roadmaster once with a quirky odometer that would sometimes accumulate mileage as expected, and sometimes run backwards, scrubbing miles off, which was a little off-putting.

I have to assume that aircraft in developed parts of the world would have pretty meticulous record-keeping but if one were so inclined, records could be fudged in less-regulated parts of the world.


06 Kia Sportage EX greenish gold(ugliest color ever)
11 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited HEMI Mineral Gray
14 Honda Accord LX metallic black
17 VW Jetta SE black
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4591000
12/01/17 01:46 PM
12/01/17 01:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,803
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,803
Virginia Beach
I'll look, but I've never seen a Hobbs meter in an airliner cockpit... APU hours meter, yes, in the 757/767, but not one for the airplane. Since each engine, and the airframe itself, have the hours tracked, there wouldn't be just one meter anyway...


32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4591461
12/01/17 09:21 PM
12/01/17 09:21 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 9,335
Central Coast, Calif.
tom slick Offline
tom slick  Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 9,335
Central Coast, Calif.
I havent seen a Hobbs meter on the military planes / engines I worked on except for the GTC (apu). Data was recorded in the computer on the engine.


You get what you pay for...
So keep in mind how much you paid for this advice.
Re: recording of cycles and hours on a plane [Re: CincyDavid] #4599422
12/09/17 11:07 PM
12/09/17 11:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 723
TX
maximus Offline
maximus  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 723
TX
On the E175, everything is logged by the CMC(central maintenance computer). It even collects other types of data, notably FOQA(flight operations quality assurance). The company can then pull this data and analyze how the aircraft has been flown. They compile trend reports with this data and use it make improvements. One such metric thats recorded is flare duration. If a pilot is landing and the flare is longer 7 seconds a FOQA event is logged.


2011 Sonata GLS.

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™