ACEA C3 vs C4 vs C2.

[Popsy]

Hello guys,

Background: my in-laws recently bought an (ugly) Citroën Berlingo, 1,6 HDI 92hp (told them not to, but the price was good apparently).
Was dealer maintain, basically had 3 very pricey OC with cabin filter change. It has around 53000Km.

So, since they are on holiday with us, I changed the fuel and air filter, and the cabin filter (which was apparently "forgotten" by the dealer last time). Also changed the gearbox's oil, which according to Citroën is never needed (it was dark anyway), but it surely improved the feeling of said gearbox.
Now what oil?

I was browsing on the ACEA website, and noticed C4 oils (never really paid attention to "C" oils before). Are these like the best thing since sliced bread for DPF vehicles? What's not to love ? HTHS 3,5 min, very low SAPS, less sulphur and min TBN of 6. It offers the "advantages" of C3 oils with the "benefits" (for the DPF) of C1 oils, with higher HTHS, lower NOACK, more Phosphorus, and a guaranteed starting TBN.

Am I missing something here? On the paper, C4 oils seem superior to C2 or C3, so why aren't more car makers recommending C4 oils? I admit C4 oil selection is pretty limited, but apart from that?

 

[chrisri]

Popsy, nice to see you here!

We have two 2014 PUG Partners with over 200k by now (work vans). Peugeot recommend C2 lubricants, but after warranty I've mostly used C3 to fight fuel dilution. They will dump fuel in the oil. Big time. Especially if driven in town or later (120k plus), as DPF reduce its efficiency and regenerate more often. As mine do.
Remedy is to let it run until regen is fully completed. When fans go on full, it regenerate.

As for C4, it's a Renault spec, I would not bother for those. Valvoline c3 MST is very low ash (for the spec), that Is what I'm using.

 

[SR5]

Both C3 & C4 are high HTHS (> 3.5 cP) with the C3 being mid-SAPS (SA < 0.8 %) and C4 being low-SAPS (< 0.5 %).

But yes the big difference is the Noack Volatility with C3 < 13% and C4 < 11%. Note, I only have my 2012 ACEA sequences on hand, but I don't think it has changed much.

If you want a bit more SAPS (and therefore a bit more TBN most likely) you can find oils that are both C3 and MB 229.51 where the MB spec requires a Noack Volatility of < 10%.

I think the best OEM spec to chase for a low SAPS oil is VW 504 / 507. It's a very tough standard.

 

[Popsy]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Remedy is to let it run until regen is fully completed. When fans go on full, it regenerate.

As for C4, it's a Renault spec, I would not bother for those. Valvoline c3 MST is very low ash (for the spec), that Is what I'm using.

Hi chrisri! Long time no see

Well, I won't probably maintain this car, just wanted to do my best for once, haha! So you say C4 (right, RN0720) isn't the best C oil ever? Being in Frogland, with many many Renault, I can buy C4 oil for cheap in the supermarket^^
Unfortunately I don't have easy access to Valvoline oils, the C3 MST has good specs on the paper, being a "thick" 5W30, if you say fuel dilution will eventually become a problem. I also noticed the 5W40 C3 MST, which might come in handy for that problem.
(There's even a C4 MST

)

Originally Posted By: SR5
I think the best OEM spec to chase for a low SAPS oil is VW 504 / 507. It's a very tough standard.

Which brings SHU Professional AV-L 0W-30 under the spotlights^^

Back on the vehicle, TBN isn't an issue, with short OCI recommended of 25000Km, there's a big safety margin (being ironic here, seriously, TBN of ~6 and 25000Km OCI ?)
229.51 and/or VW 504/507 seem the way to go for long term protection.

But if we focus on DPF "protection" mostly, why not the C4 route? Seriously, why no manufacturer other than Renault use it? Higher HTHS (often related to higher KV100 viscosity) to better control fuel dilution, low SAPS, decent price?
I'm not really concerned by that vehicle in particular (I'm pretty sure it will do fine with any C3 oil), but asking more out of curiosity.

 

[Bailes1992]

I've owned a few of these engines now and had a few UOA done. I found fuel efficiency oils such as ACEA C2 or A5/B5 had sheared down to a 20 weight (from a 30 weight) after 5k to 6k miles.

I personally find a *w40 meeting ACEA C3 and BMW LL04 produced the best UOA results and made for a quieter and smoother engine. Don't be too scared, it's the reccomend oil for BMW Minis fitted with the same Ford/PSA DV6 engine.

I also used a few HDEO in 10w30 and 5w40 weights that also produced good UOA results and if bought in bulk were much cheaper!

These engines really like short OCIs with quality oils. They and renowned for having oil related issues.

 

[Popsy]

Bailes1992, do you have links to your UOA? I'd be very interested in seeing them! (do you have some from your Defender too?)

A 5W40 C3 oil. Being an old school thick oil guy, I can only approve. Valvoline C3 MST already caught my eyes.

 

[chrisri]

Bailes is right. Recommend OCI is too long in my experience. 20k km is max I'm going. By then oil level sometimes RISES and general condition of oil isn't reassuring. Mind that my use of this vehicle is optimal- little to no city driving, light load, mostly open road/ motorway, and adding kms at higher rate (8k km per month). Personal vehicles aren't used easy as this.

In theory Valvoline 5w40 mst I'm using should handle oil dilution later in the OCI better than OEM Total. In practice engine sound less rattling.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: Popsy
Being in Frogland, with many many Renault, I can buy C4 oil for cheap in the supermarket^^
..... if we focus on DPF "protection" mostly, why not the C4 route? Seriously, why no manufacturer other than Renault use it? Higher HTHS (often related to higher KV100 viscosity) to better control fuel dilution, low SAPS, decent price?
I'm not really concerned by that vehicle in particular (I'm pretty sure it will do fine with any C3 oil), but asking more out of curiosity.

Popsy, I really feel you should be using C4 in this context.

 

[Popsy]

I'm torn between using the best oil possible, watching the vehicle closely and taking care of it to try preventing issues in the long run (which I somewhat try to do with my own cars), and use the best quality/price oil possible at given time...and if I can buy it at the supermarket, it's even better^^

I'm well aware the factory OCI are crazy, especially on such a car which is often short driven, etc, and that said engine hasn't the cleanest reliability record (I knew without even doing researches on it), due to conceptions flaws, OCI too long, owners negligence?

The car is (unfortunately) under an extended guarantee till 2019 (another mistake IMO), so I guess I have to conform more or less to what the manufacturer asks. 5W40 C3 oil proved hard to come by, or very expensive. I could buy some Total Quartz 9000 0W30, which is a low SAPS A3/B4 oil, and back it up by buying another C3 oil (to get the invoice), then returning it

But that still doesn't fill my curiosity regarding C4 oils, such a strange oil cert

 

[Bailes1992]

I had my MK3 Ford Focus 1.5TDCi (same engine, smaller bore and shorter crank) from new and got shot of it at 30 months/60k.
I changed the oil every 5-6k during my ownership and used a number of oils. I don't have a copy of the UOA's.I put them on my photobucket which I've since deleted.

Oil Change 1
1,000miles - Ford Formula F 5w30 WSS-M2C913D A5/B5

Oil Change 2
6,000miles - Halfords 5w30 WSS-M2C913D A5/B5
UOA @ 12,500miles showed the oil had diluted/sheared down to a 20 weight with 5% fuel dilution.

Oil Change 3
12,500miles - Castrol Edge 0w30 A5/B5

Oil Change 4
17,500miles - Castrol Edge 0w30 A5/B5
UOA @ 22,500miles showed the oil had diluted/sheared to a 20 weight with 3% fuel dilution.

Oil Change 5
22,500miles - Shell Helix Ultra Professional 5w30 Dexos2 C3
Noticed much quieter and smoother running.

Oil Change 6
28,500miles - Shell Helix Ultra Professional 5w30 Dexos2
UOA @ 34,000miles showed reduced wear material and the oil stayed in grade. 3% fuel dilution.

Oil Change 7
34,000miles - Castrol Edge 5w40 LL04/ACEA C3
Noticed even smoother running and a significantly quieter top end.

Oil Change 8
39,000miles - Castrol Edge 5w40 LL04/ACEA C3
UOA @ 44,000miles showed slightly further reduced wear materials and oil stayed in grade. 4% Fuel Dilution.

Oil Change 9
44,000miles - Total Quartz 9000 0w30 A3/B4
Similar quiet running. UOA @ 50,000 showed similar reduced wear materials. Oil stayed in grade. 7% fuel dilution.

Oil Change 9
50,000miles - Castrol Vecton 10w30 E6/E9
Got 'nervous' as it was a semi-synthetic oil. UOA @ 53,000miles showed very low wear materials and stayed in grade. No fuel dilution.

Oil Change 10
53,000miles - Castrol Vecton 10w30 E6/E9

Oil Change 11
55,000miles - Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 ESP
UOA @ 60,000miles showed the lowest wear rates I'd seen for a 5,000miles oil change. Oil stayed in grade. 6% fuel dilution.

Oil Change 12
60,000miles - Mobil1 0w40 Turbo Diesel (A3/B4)

Sold the car shortly after. My plan was to keep the car until it was fit the scrap yard, probably boost the power up to 160-170bhp. I do 25-30k a year so it would have had a fair bit of mileage on it. I changed jobs about 2 months ago and now have a company car (with another DV6 funny enough).

Luckily my Brother in-law, Mother in-law and my own Mother all have engines that accept Ford 913D oil so I was able to play with the receipts to make it look like it had always had the specified oil throughout it's life when I sold it.

Quiet and reliable engines but they need quality fuels and regular oil changes.

If I'd kept it I think I would have stuck with Mobil Delvac1 or Castrol Edge 5w40 (LL04/C3).


If it's not burning oil look for an oil I would compromise with a *w40 weight oil that met ACEA A3/B4 with a SAPS of less than 1%, C3 or E6/E9. If it starts burning oil terribly consider a C4 oil.

 

[DS9]

My choice for Berlingo DV6+DPF

http://www.fuel-economy.lubricants.total...0_012014_en.pdf

 

[Popsy]

So much fuel dilution! It's crazy! I bet my old school diesel doesn't put half that fuel in its oil

Is there a relation between fuel dilution in UOA and the SAPS content of the used oil? A bit of a pattern, but without the actual data, hard to tell.
Castrol 5W40 C3 is actually something I can get, will suggest this oil when it'll be time for shopping tomorrow!

Total Quartz Ineo efficiency 0W-30 is another option, staying closer to the recommended oil route... I don't think I've ever seen some, but will look for it tomorrow. I considered the Ineo First 0W30, but Ineo Efficiency looks better.


Regarding the car itself, after driving it bit, I don't like it.
It's comfortable, but the handling is average at best, clearly not made for speed, and not made for Brittany's small roads! Perfect on highway with cruise control.
Typical Citroën, brakes and clutches lack progressivity (changed the brake fluid this afternoon, clutch is a little better now).
The engine is noisy and seem gutless, though it makes illusion when starting from a stop, and yes it had good low rev power, but passed 3000/3500rpm there's nothing to look for. Probably neutered by the weight... I don't talk about the gearbox command. Seriously? Feels like the gearbox of a 40 y.o. CX

I actually prefer my old break with the Fiat TD100 engine, it is equally slow but at least it feels like you have something under the foot...and fuel economy isn't that different.

Fortunately, it isn't my car

And it's perfect to bring 5 people + luggage anywhere

 

[zeng]

Thanks for sharing.
A5B5 (and by extension, any SN/SM ILSAC) shears out of grade.
On the contrary A3B4, C3, E6/E9 all stay in grade......
at OCI's of 5000 miles thereabout.

Edit:brackets

 

[chrisri]

I actually like how it handles, but mine is cargo version,so in Alfa speak "Alleggerita" haha.

Very few problems, accelerator pedal changed- intermittent fault, DPF cleaned at 150k. That is it. Offside front shock is noisy- those have cartridge type and sometimes cartridge move slightly inside strut making noise, only cosmetic, doesn't effect the ride so I haven't intervene.
Bad stuff:
Driving position really unfit for drivers over 185cm. Probably not problem in France

but im 192/110 kg so its a little tight.
Steering wheel is made out of material that resembles soft cheese and have similar resistance to wear- on my 250k , 19 yo Punto wheel looks much better.
As you said, engine is gutless after 3k, but I'l admit at idle and low speeds so more refined than my Mjets. At speed things are opposite.

All in all not a bad van, however I prefer both the Kangoo and Doblo to be honest.

 

[NGRhodes]

Originally Posted By: zeng
Thanks for sharing.
A5B5 (and by extension, any SN/SM ILSAC) shears out of grade.
On the contrary A3B4, C3, E6/E9 all stay in grade......
at OCI's of 5000 miles thereabout.

Edit:brackets


You can only conclude that for that specific engine ONLY. You need results from many different engines to attempt a generalisation.
A5B5 and A4B4 have the same stay in grade requirements for Europe.

 

[zeng]

Agree with you, it's a generalisation

.

 

[Popsy]

chrisri, I can suspect Pug and Citroën have different suspension settings, we've seen that in the past. But you're right, it's not fit for tall people. I'm not tall (181cm), but doesn't feel completely right. The owner (158cm) feels right at her place, haha!

Well, just to say that we went the budget route, some 0W30 Petronas oil, with the supposedly right approvals. I already planned the next oil change in 6 months, and this time I'll put some 5W40 C3, probably Castrol since I can't get Valvoline, or some 0W40 C3 Mobil 1, depending on what will be the cheapest at that time.

Interesting thing would be UOA with different types of oil, including some C4 oil, but that's out of the question till I win the lottery