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2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat #4580481
11/20/17 09:30 PM
11/20/17 09:30 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline OP
SubieRubyRoo  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
OK guys, after some delays because I didn't go to Fort Wayne when I originally planned, here is my latest UOA. Based on what I am seeing and what dnewton has previously observed, I do agree the combo of PUP, my engine/filters, and the Napa Platinum are serving me well and I likely will try to hit 20k on the current OCI. I do understand that "some" of the slight thickening would be partially combatted if I needed to add any oil at all, but when it starts off at the top of the hash marks and 17k later is at the same point (with a 2.9 TBN no less!), I'm not going to complain.

85ish% is what I consider highway- I drive 21 miles each way to work, essentially nonstop at speeds between 30-65. Rest is in-town but this OCI had about 8500 miles in 2 months driving for work... most of it 75+mph on interstates, and finished the OCI with a 1700-mile trip to VA and back. One thing I forgot to tell Blackstone and you guys might have some input... about the first 10 tankfuls (~5k miles) of this OCI I used some synthetic TCW3 oil at 1oz/5gal, and then maybe 3-4 more times after that.

My question is, could the TCW3 oil have been the reason why the viscosity crept up some? I see that it didn't help wear rates or really mileage either, so I won't be doing that anymore most likely. Anyways, I know there are lots of Napa Platinum "haters" here... the 12k run was a FU filter, 13.6k was Amsoil EaO34, and this run was the Napa Platinum 41516... longest OCI yet and the insolubles are the lowest they've ever been... What's up with that?:) Enjoy!

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580494
11/20/17 09:39 PM
11/20/17 09:39 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline OP
SubieRubyRoo  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
Just for some additional background... the two oldest UOAs were both PP and the one at 58,650 got a bottle of MoS2. Next 11,950 OCI was PUP with no additives but looks like residual moly from the MoS2. Same with the 12k run- PUP, no additives. The 13.6k run had a big jump in moly but a HUGE jump in boron... due to a can of Ceratec. The 17k run was additive free.

So, I'm one of those mostly scientific guys... and as much as I love the 'gut-feel' of putting some crafty additives in, if you run the numbers and to a Student's T-test... none of the additives or difference between PP or PUP has made any statistically significant changes to the wear rates (or gas mileage) of my engine. ATF was changed at 90k and coolant/thermo at 100k, and neither of those really showed anything either. Silicon just appears to run a little higher than most.

Oh... and for the really geeky nerds who love this stuff... this car alone is responsible for 9 of the 201 samples Blackstone uses to calculate these universal averages... @ a 7200 mile average. When I started sending this car's UOAs in, the average was 6,650 miles smile

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580526
11/20/17 10:05 PM
11/20/17 10:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,825
In the shop
53' Stude Online content
53' Stude  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,825
In the shop
That is impressive. Thanks for the post and what did you replace filter and did you use more PUP?

Thx smile


09' Camry LE, 141,020 miles

PP 5w30 and TG 4967
Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580535
11/20/17 10:12 PM
11/20/17 10:12 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline OP
SubieRubyRoo  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
Adam, yes... this was a full changeover... I will be mailing you the Napa Platinum and a MicroGreen 201-7 from the Odyssey for board dissection.

Another load of gray-bottle PUP 0W20 went in along with a Microgreen 301-1 filter (FL400S replacement, I like bigger filters). I will change the filter at 10k and top up with pre-GTL PP 5W20 as this was the last of my gray bottle PUP, but I intend on holding off on another UOA until 20k.

If SOPUS would ever get the supply chain full of PUP, I'd fill every sump I touch with it! smile I hate having to hop between Suckmart and Amazon to find it when I need it.

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580541
11/20/17 10:16 PM
11/20/17 10:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,825
In the shop
53' Stude Online content
53' Stude  Online Content
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Posts: 10,825
In the shop
Sounds great and canít wait for the filters. Have a good Thanksgiving Sir smile


09' Camry LE, 141,020 miles

PP 5w30 and TG 4967
Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580661
11/21/17 04:05 AM
11/21/17 04:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,458
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,458
NY
It looks great for the amount of miles driven. I ran 5W30 PU and had it thicken up a bit too, but the wear numbers were very good.

Good question about the TCW3. I doubt it had an impact on the viscosity though, jmo.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580666
11/21/17 04:24 AM
11/21/17 04:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
My question is, could the TCW3 oil have been the reason why the viscosity crept up some?


No - the viscosity crept up because the oil started drying out. 17,000 miles will do that.

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580826
11/21/17 09:54 AM
11/21/17 09:54 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline OP
SubieRubyRoo  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
But the oil level didn't change over the entire OCI... not even a 1/16". I did read in another Blackstone UOA comment that they opined that high heat probably drove the viscosity up some... the first 8500 and last 1700 miles of this OCI was all high-speed (70+) driving for 250-350 miles nonstop. While it wasn't exactly "hard" driving, I do understand that the long, extended heat definitely gets the oil temps up.

I am disappointed there are not more comments, but I do know this report was really kinda boring smile

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4580860
11/21/17 10:39 AM
11/21/17 10:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,784
.
Danh Offline
Danh  Offline
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Posts: 1,784
.
Afaik, conventional wisdom is that oil will begin to thin almost immediately as molecules are sheared. But as oil gets much older oxidation will begin, thickening the oil. I suspect that the high mileage on your interval has allowed the oxidation effect to more than offset the shearing.

As an example, look at UOAs of known 20 weight DI fuel diluters: they seem to dilute down to around 6.0-6.5 cSt in the first couple thousand miles. Viscosity of sample's taken with much more mileage seems about the same, implying oxidation has compensating for shearing and more fuel dilution. Maybe...

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: Danh] #4580866
11/21/17 10:47 AM
11/21/17 10:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,906
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,906
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Danh
Afaik, conventional wisdom is that oil will begin to thin almost immediately as molecules are sheared. But as oil gets much older oxidation will begin, thickening the oil. I suspect that the high mileage on your interval has allowed the oxidation effect to more than offset the shearing.

As an example, look at UOAs of known 20 weight DI fuel diluters: they seem to dilute down to around 6.0-6.5 cSt in the first couple thousand miles. Viscosity of sample's taken with much more mileage seems about the same, implying oxidation has compensating for shearing and more fuel dilution. Maybe...

Just to comment on this statement, oil molecules do not shear, at least not in the environment of an ICE. If anything shears it is the long-chain polymer viscosity improvers but Sonofjoe has commented that this does not happen nearly as often as people imagine it does. He said that the polymers are quite stable. As you mix in your comment above it is more likely that any thinning is due to fuel dilution but Blackstone has demonstrated that they are quite unable to determine accurate fuel dilution numbers.

Last edited by kschachn; 11/21/17 10:48 AM.

1994 BMW 530i, 229K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 402K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 272K
Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4581081
11/21/17 02:54 PM
11/21/17 02:54 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
vinu_neuro Offline
vinu_neuro  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
When doing this kind of interval the TBN isn't enough on it's own. What is the the TAN to go along with it? What is the oxidation.. it is showing up in the visc thickening. You don't have enough information here to support a 17k mile interval let alone going to 20k. Do a UOA with a lab like wearcheck or polaris if you really want to do extended intervals.

Last edited by vinu_neuro; 11/21/17 02:55 PM.


Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4581085
11/21/17 03:02 PM
11/21/17 03:02 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline OP
SubieRubyRoo  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
I understand the viscosity concern on DI engines... but this is a port-injected one. We'll see if the same thickening happens on the next UOA, as it will have a filter change and top-off at 10k into the OCI due to the Microgreen filter.

As a side note, I have plugged my entire OCI history into JMP (statistical software like Minitab) to play around with the numbers. There are some curious things I wanted to get some opinions on:

1. Lowest wear rate in Fe/1k miles was with pre-GTL Pennz Ultra @ 0.78ppm/1k (16ppm in 20,637 miles).
2. Highest wear rate is with PUP(GTL) at 1.04ppm/1k (32ppm in 30,750 miles).
3. Pennz Plat (pre-GTL) and Mobil 1 AFE were nearly identical at 0.878 and 0.917ppm/1k.
4. While there is a general distaste here for MotorKote and clorinated products, the OCI treated with it resulted in the highest TBN (4.5 @ 9640 miles) and the 2nd lowest individual wear rate (0.726 ppm Fe/1k).

So.... while iron is steadily increasing with longer runs (given), the wear rate is just slightly up as well. Would you drop the oil at say the 12k mark because technically the lowest recorded wear was there, or run 17k+ because 1ppm is still nothing concerning?

Graphs for the geeks:


Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4581098
11/21/17 03:44 PM
11/21/17 03:44 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
vinu_neuro Offline
vinu_neuro  Offline
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Posts: 1,119
Chicago / IN
Sorry if this is harsh, but if you know what minitab is you probably also know that this data isn't close to being statistically significant. Also ask whether 1ppm/1k vs. .8ppm/1k has any practical meaning in the life of the engine.

There is more to UOA's than wear numbers. Running the oil too far will result in deposits before the corrosive wear really starts showing up. How are you going to find out about piston, turbo and other deposits before it results in symptoms like oil consumption.

It would sensible to drop the interval back to something reasonable like 12k and do a UOA at a proper lab, you'll get more data for less money. TAN and Oxidation are critical! Blackstone's fuel test is also not very good.




Last edited by vinu_neuro; 11/21/17 03:45 PM.


Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4581127
11/21/17 04:10 PM
11/21/17 04:10 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline OP
SubieRubyRoo  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,373
The land of USA-made Subies!
vinu, that's part of what I want to discuss... although I would argue that 8 UOAs and 90k miles of data DO constitute something statistically significant. The only thing that really isn't trending with mileage is TBN, and for that I have no rhyme or reason other than maybe where I got my fuel from (top tier vs. non)? I may split my next 10k sample and send one to Polaris and one to BlSt.

But yes, a difference of 0.1 or 0.2ppm Fe/1k is not going to affect engine life at any point during my ownership of the car smile

I'd love it if dnewton or molakule to chime in. I think they give good insight on their posts.

Re: 2011 Fusion 2.5, 17.1k mi UOA, PUP 0W20, Napa Plat [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4582017
11/22/17 03:52 PM
11/22/17 03:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,469
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
SirTanon Offline
SirTanon  Offline
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Posts: 2,469
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
Good numbers you have there, that's for sure. Overall, per 1k miles, I'd say your numbers look very similar to what I've been seeing for my 2010, although your Moly and Boron numbers are substantially higher. I get that, though, considering your additives.

Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Oh... and for the really geeky nerds who love this stuff... this car alone is responsible for 9 of the 201 samples Blackstone uses to calculate these universal averages... @ a 7200 mile average. When I started sending this car's UOAs in, the average was 6,650 miles smile


Nice... and between your 2011 and my 2010, I'd say we've been responsible for close to 8% of the samples. cheers


2010 Ford Fusion SE - 2.5 liter/6F35 Trans - 262,000mi
2014 Nissan Altima SL - 2.5 liter/CVT - 57,000mi
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