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Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: PiperOne] #4583395 11/24/17 07:01 AM
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leje0306 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PiperOne
Originally Posted By: leje0306
Ummm bypass filter?


No...no bypass filter...just the full flow Fleetguard. I bought a bypass system (Racor)...but never installed it once I saw the numbers were what they are.


Wow, amazing results then

Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: PiperOne] #4583412 11/24/17 07:39 AM
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PiperOne Offline OP
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Dnewton3....first off...thanks for the explanation.

So basically...once I get a decent sample pool size...I could look at the std deviations and when I see values outside that...it can flag a problem for me? For example...if my average viscosity was say 14 and the std deviation was 3...I would be concerned only if the number was lower than 11 or higher than 17 (very hypothetical numbers!)?


HDEO in Diesel Engines. No spark plugs here.
Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: PiperOne] #4584064 11/24/17 09:37 PM
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dnewton3 Offline
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"Normal" is considered being 3 sigma off of the mean or less.
In your example, only being "3" off (11 or 17) would be completely normal and expected.
In your example, non-normal would be a low of 5 and a high of 23.

It it also normal (not statistical, but the vernacular use) to occasionally see a spike that is due to a particle streak; these will jump up suddenly and then settle over an OCI or two, as the residual is drained successively. It happened to my Dmax; got a spike in Pb that dropped upon the next OCI.

In UOAs, it's very important to watch for trending. Try to discern if the means are going up. Knowing the stdev is important, but not the whole story. Need to know the mean, the stdev, and trending. Which is why a few UOAs are just not nearly enough to know about your individual equipment performance. Micro data is just really hard to come by due to the time and money it takes to get there. Macro data is useful in that you get a decent view of overall market response. But you are far and away much further along than most folks!

Hope that helps.

Last edited by dnewton3; 11/24/17 09:39 PM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: dnewton3] #5175092 07/30/19 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
Doing the math; 20 OFCIs at 20k kms each - that's 400k kms (give or take a little). That engine is on death's doorstep, and probably won't last much more than an additional 600K kms! LOL! (I am presuming kms because it's in Canada).

Averaging less than 1ppm FE per 1k kms; nice! All other metals so low they are inconsequential. (put's it about 1ppm / 1k miles "ish")

I do take exception to the std dev values they post; technically speaking anything less than 30 samples makes for too much error in calculations. But that is the statistical quality control engineering in me speaking ...


OTOH - it's a Dmax; would we expect anything other than boring (stellar) results? And, this is an LMM; it does have in-cylinder regens! Hard to tell it though. It was the subsequent LML that introduced the downstream 9th injector.


so was the whole "that engine is on death's doorstep" a sarcastic comment dnewton3?

Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: oakaro68] #5175109 07/30/19 05:46 PM
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kschachn Offline
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Originally Posted by oakaro68
so was the whole "that engine is on death's doorstep" a sarcastic comment dnewton3?

Originally Posted by dnewton3
Doing the math; 20 OFCIs at 20k kms each - that's 400k kms (give or take a little). That engine is on death's doorstep, and probably won't last much more than an additional 600K kms! LOL! (I am presuming kms because it's in Canada).

What do you think?


1994 BMW 530i, 251K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 430K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 284K
Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: PiperOne] #5176331 08/01/19 05:23 AM
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BMWTurboDzl Offline
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Originally Posted by PiperOne
It's miles...not km. Bought it in the US.

To be fair and open...this engine's emission system has been modified. It does return to stock form if it goes to California or other emission hyper locations (about 45 mins to change it back over). About 15% of these miles are with the unit doing regens etc but the rest are more like an LBZ...just EGR and DOC...no DPF. It was ugly oil samples (and fuel mileage) from another LMM that convinced me this unit needed to be modified. Based on those samples I would have used conventional oil and likely 10k mi oil changes...and found other ways to deal with the cold start n go situatuons. I'd have no problem treating the newer DEF Duramax's the same as this one...20k.

That all said..still happy with the results and I think it's decent proof the Dmax does not need short "oil is cheap" type service intervals.


No DPF eh?

I guess that means no regen cycles either?


“It took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

435i
Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: PiperOne] #5194197 08/22/19 07:53 PM
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oakaro68 Offline
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Originally Posted by PiperOne
I did push one service out to 31,000 miles...just to see..and that sample's values are included in the list above...and it did really well...even out that far. It was summer however..so I backed it back down to 20,000 to make myself feel better about winter and idling and what that can do..and 20k is easy math for my feeble brain! The worst oil sample to come from this truck was a short change interval to get things back on the perfect 20k interval...8000 miles.. it was not as nice as the rest.

In an earlier post you mentioned std deviation values..and how you liked 30 samples plus. If it is easy to explain....what is the standard deviation value and what is it's usefullness in these reports?

Can you explain why the 8k oci wasn't as good as the 20k? Just learning here.

Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: dnewton3] #5194228 08/22/19 08:18 PM
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Especially with sump drained oil having only reasonable source controls for the sample.
By comparison, UOA samples on our industrial engines come from the same sample valve in an oil cooler loop - fixed rate and temperature with engine under load.
(they will not accept sump samples).

Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: oakaro68] #5244316 10/19/19 02:45 PM
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PiperOne Offline OP
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Originally Posted by oakaro68
Originally Posted by PiperOne
I did push one service out to 31,000 miles...just to see..and that sample's values are included in the list above...and it did really well...even out that far. It was summer however..so I backed it back down to 20,000 to make myself feel better about winter and idling and what that can do..and 20k is easy math for my feeble brain! The worst oil sample to come from this truck was a short change interval to get things back on the perfect 20k interval...8000 miles.. it was not as nice as the rest.

In an earlier post you mentioned std deviation values..and how you liked 30 samples plus. If it is easy to explain....what is the standard deviation value and what is it's usefullness in these reports?

Can you explain why the 8k oci wasn't as good as the 20k? Just learning here.


I really don't have a scientific explanation.....but the short sample was the worst.


HDEO in Diesel Engines. No spark plugs here.
Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: kschachn] #5251630 10/27/19 06:50 PM
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oakaro68 Offline
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by oakaro68
so was the whole "that engine is on death's doorstep" a sarcastic comment dnewton3?

Originally Posted by dnewton3
Doing the math; 20 OFCIs at 20k kms each - that's 400k kms (give or take a little). That engine is on death's doorstep, and probably won't last much more than an additional 600K kms! LOL! (I am presuming kms because it's in Canada).

What do you think?

I think I'm not educated enough on the matter to assume my own conclusion, hence the reason I put my pride aside on a public forum and asked. I'm here to learn not try to embarrass those who ask a "dumb question".

Question stands.

Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: PiperOne] #5329095 01/21/20 08:02 PM
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Good to see another LMM van still going strong. I have an 09’ LMM van that I run oil field service in. Same story, on call 24/7 and need to get out and on the road ASAP. I’m currently at 232,000 miles and a little over 10,000hrs. It spends a lot of time idling. I mostly run Rotella 15/40 with M1 303A filters every 12k miles. I may push it to 15k soon. All the UOAs have come back great with plenty of TBN left. It’s fully deleted though.

My only worry is how long the 4L85E trans will last. Fingers crossed.

Re: 400,000 miles of Duramax Oil samples [Re: NVRENUFF] #5329254 01/22/20 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NVRENUFF
... My only worry is how long the 4L85E trans will last.


Probably not as long as the Alli 1000, but then again, your LMM isn't tuned for as much torque as the full-on truck version, is it? I thought that the van versions were detuned a bit?

OTOH, rebuilding the 4L85E is fairly quick and inexpensive. In fact, when it starts to show the first signs of issues, I'd get a good quality aftermarket reman and just keep on motoring along. Far cheaper than getting a new van.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
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