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Please help me understand #4577118
11/17/17 01:32 PM
11/17/17 01:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 896
N. Georgia Mtns
Sierra048 Offline OP
Sierra048  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 896
N. Georgia Mtns
Courtesy of Wemay,




I asked this question in the wrong thread and it never went anywhere so I thought I'd ask again.

Looking at the voa values, and recognizing there are no 10w30 oils with Dexos approval, my question is why not? Specifacally for the above listed Valvoline Synpower. These values seem almost identical across the board. What other factors make a 10w30 not Dexos adequate?

Last edited by Sierra048; 11/17/17 01:32 PM.

2014 Nissan Frontier
2014 GMC Sierra 1500
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577122
11/17/17 01:37 PM
11/17/17 01:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Because it is a 10W-30.

Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577126
11/17/17 01:39 PM
11/17/17 01:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,828
New York
pbm Offline
pbm  Offline
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,828
New York
What other factors make a 10w30 not Dexos adequate?

I would imagine it's because GM doesn't specify 10w30 in any of it's vehicles.(Dexos is a GM spec)
That doesn't mean that it wouldn't perform well especially in Florida, California etc....(warmer climates).


'Journalism is Dead'
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577131
11/17/17 01:43 PM
11/17/17 01:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,870
NEUS
Bandito440 Offline
Bandito440  Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,870
NEUS
GM owns Dexos.

No GM vehicles spec 10w-30.

There is no need for oil manufacturers to pay GM for the use of Dexos on 10w-30 oils.


'14 Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel
Rotella T6 5w-40 & OEM filter
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577136
11/17/17 01:47 PM
11/17/17 01:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,625
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,625
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
What other factors make a 10w30 not Dexos adequate?

Probably cold flow properties and the fuel economy aspects that it affects.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577175
11/17/17 02:34 PM
11/17/17 02:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,018
5600 feet elevation, Arizona
double vanos Offline
double vanos  Offline
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,018
5600 feet elevation, Arizona
Not a single pour point made it to -40 which makes me think we have a lot of GRP 3 in these oils, which is fine with me, just an observation.I used to be a big fan of high VI numbers but now Iím not so sure.
The 5w20 had the lowest VI of the bunch but had the the best Noack value.
Doesnít answer the question of why 10w30 isnít Dexos rated but my wifesí Ď98 Northstar Cadillac was specíd for 10w30, so at some point 10w30 was ok with GM, probably before there was any serious discussion about fuel economy.


Sabine Schmitz is the Queen of the 'Ring; Svetlana Kapanina is the Queen of the SKIES...
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577180
11/17/17 02:41 PM
11/17/17 02:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,231
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Even if Dexos testing standards are quite strict, do we really want it to become an industry standard certification for all vehicles regardless of make? Seems like API has most of that covered, and it always concerns me when a competitor within an industry starts calling its own shots.

Also: http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/178

Re: Please help me understand [Re: Reddy45] #4577203
11/17/17 03:19 PM
11/17/17 03:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,625
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,625
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Seems like API has most of that covered,

IMO, API has historically only covered the basics, the bare minimum. As engines have become more advanced in search of improved performance, fuel economy, and longer OCIs, this brought about requirements for better performing oils. API requirements didn't go far enough, so most engine manufacturers came up with their own oil standards. GM isn't the only one that has its own oil specifications.

And interestingly enough, dexos requirements encompass other engine mfg and industry specs, for example, Mercedes, Peugeot, and ACEA. All the spec requirements are in one of the tabs of this Excel:
http://www.centerforqa.com/media/D1%20Candidate%20Data%20Package%20rev20170910.xls


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577238
11/17/17 04:14 PM
11/17/17 04:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 896
N. Georgia Mtns
Sierra048 Offline OP
Sierra048  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 896
N. Georgia Mtns
Thanks for the replies. Dexos approval via payments to GM wasn't what I was curious about. It was strictly the make-up of the oil that had me wondering. I thought I read where a Dexos certified oil had to have less than 1.0 sulfated ash and a noack of 10 or less. If this is wrong please let me know. If not, the 10w30 certainly meets these criteria. Anyone know of any other specs that a 10w30 wouldn't meet?

Quatro Pete: cold flow properties is noted. Is that a big factor in Dexos approval? And wouldn't a 10w30 at operating temps would perform just like a 5w30, so would fuel economy be affected that much? I'm not arguing, just asking.


2014 Nissan Frontier
2014 GMC Sierra 1500
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577257
11/17/17 04:32 PM
11/17/17 04:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,844
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,844
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Thanks for the replies. Dexos approval via payments to GM wasn't what I was curious about. It was strictly the make-up of the oil that had me wondering. I thought I read where a Dexos certified oil had to have less than 1.0 sulfated ash and a noack of 10 or less. If this is wrong please let me know. If not, the 10w30 certainly meets these criteria. Anyone know of any other specs that a 10w30 wouldn't meet?

Quatro Pete: cold flow properties is noted. Is that a big factor in Dexos approval? And wouldn't a 10w30 at operating temps would perform just like a 5w30, so would fuel economy be affected that much? I'm not arguing, just asking.


Not sure about the sulphated ash but Noack limit for dexos1 is 13%.


18 Sportage 2.4L AWD: Mobil1 Annual Protection 5W20 + Mobil1-104A + e air WIX10335
13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T: Pennzoil Platinum 10W30 + FRAM XG9688 + e air WIX49670

Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577262
11/17/17 04:37 PM
11/17/17 04:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,241
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,241
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Maybe it's as simple as GM decided not to certify any grades as dexos1 except 5w-30 (the only one at the outset), 0w-30, 5w-20, and 0w-20, no matter what properties they had aside from grade.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Please help me understand [Re: double vanos] #4577279
11/17/17 04:58 PM
11/17/17 04:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,436
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,436
New England
Originally Posted By: double vanos
Not a single pour point made it to -40 which makes me think we have a lot of GRP 3 in these oils, which is fine with me, just an observation.I used to be a big fan of high VI numbers but now Iím not so sure.
The 5w20 had the lowest VI of the bunch but had the the best Noack value.
Doesnít answer the question of why 10w30 isnít Dexos rated but my wifesí Ď98 Northstar Cadillac was specíd for 10w30, so at some point 10w30 was ok with GM, probably before there was any serious discussion about fuel economy.


dexos1 didn't go live until 2011, so it's quite a bit younger than your wife's Caddy.


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577284
11/17/17 05:09 PM
11/17/17 05:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,655
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,655
Down Under
I honestly think that the Valvoline 10W30 synthetic above would meet all the quality requirements of being a Dexos oil. Especially given they were probably formulated as a group and all have the same nominal values for features like sulphated ash, TBN, Zinc, etc.

It's just that 10W30 is not an allowed viscosity grade under Dexos. Why? Because I assume GM want people to see the Dexos logo on a bottle of oil and know it's suitable for their GM car without having to think more about it. If it was a 10W30, it would not be suitable for very cold climates (below 0F or -20C), and the person would have to select the correct Dexos oil for their climate eg the 5W30 instead of the 10W30. I think GM is worried about people selecting the wrong oil for their car, so they made the approved Dexos grades suitable for a very wide climatic variation and the largest customer base possible. It's more about making the oil selection process as easy and as fool proof as possible for the general public, who may not find oil very interesting (I know !!).

I think 10W30 is a great viscosity grade as it is naturally shear stable and with low Noack volatility, it's just not suitable for very cold climates, but a great oil in a warm climate.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Please help me understand [Re: bigj_16] #4577303
11/17/17 05:26 PM
11/17/17 05:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 164
NJ, USA
davison0976 Offline
davison0976  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 164
NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Because it is a 10W-30.


+2

From what I gathered over the time being interested in oils, back in the days viscosity modifiers weren't as advanced as today and 10w-30 was a "go to" type of oil because it would not shear as quickly. Nowadays, GM isn't even considering 10w-30 in their spec as illustrated below. Technically, if 5w-30 with current viscosity modifiers stays in grade as long as 10w-30 you gain nothing by running 10w-30. On the opposite side, 5w-30 offers better flow at start up, while at the operating temperature both expected to behave the same.

Also, notice low temperature cranking viscosity requirement. 10w-30 probably doesn't meet it, as someone I think had mentioned already.





Re: Please help me understand [Re: Sierra048] #4577316
11/17/17 05:34 PM
11/17/17 05:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,625
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,625
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Quatro Pete: cold flow properties is noted. Is that a big factor in Dexos approval?
I don't know if it's a big facfor, but it's one of the requirements, and you have to meet them all to qualify.

Quote:
And wouldn't a 10w30 at operating temps would perform just like a 5w30, so would fuel economy be affected that much? I'm not arguing, just asking.


Yes, at operating temp there should be no difference, but the fuel economy tests are performed in various conditions, including on a cold engine in cold weather.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
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