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ICON A5 #4568297
11/08/17 09:30 PM
11/08/17 09:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 10
NC
GregR Offline OP
GregR  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 10
NC
We've had another fatal crash. It's not been a good six months for Icon.

ICON Crash This one was very costly to them taking one of their employees.

Can they survive? I hope they do, but it's going to be tough.

Last edited by GregR; 11/08/17 09:31 PM.

2015 Buick Verano
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Re: ICON A5 [Re: GregR] #4568333
11/08/17 10:11 PM
11/08/17 10:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,421
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,421
Jupiter, Florida
There is footage (online) of Roy Halladay flying right before the crash. But I don't think the video shows any part of the crash. I won't link to the footage, as it's chock-a-block full of cursing.

Regardless of what actually caused the crash, it certainly seems like he was flying irresponsibly.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: ICON A5 [Re: Cujet] #4568422
11/09/17 12:26 AM
11/09/17 12:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,435
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline
DeepFriar  Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,435
Georgia
Originally Posted By: Cujet


Regardless of what actually caused the crash, it certainly seems like he was flying irresponsibly.


I saw it, happily without a sound track. The guy must have heard the "nearly impossible to stall" mantra during the ICON (cough) training and either didn't hear or wasn't told the part about it being possible to pull the wings off the thing. Just sad. I remember back to when Russell Munson went in too. Money is no substitute for brains.

Re: ICON A5 [Re: DeepFriar] #4568510
11/09/17 07:24 AM
11/09/17 07:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
billt460 Offline
billt460  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Money is no substitute for brains.


That's the real problem here. For what he paid for that thing, he could have purchased a much more proven aircraft. Along with some serious flight time with an instructor. The way they market that thing, it's nothing but a disaster waiting to happen. In flying altitude is your best friend. All this thing does is assemble a disastrous combination of low altitude "exhilarating" flying, coupled with inexperience in what is basically an unproven aircraft. That is marketed and sold to attract thrill seekers as a, "Jet Ski With Wings".

Who pays almost $400K for a brand new aircraft, which has you sign a clause in the contract that you won't sue the manufacturer? Or else be forced to pay another $10K. That's insane.

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/icon-purchase/#.WgRHRrde6xo

"Still, if a buyer wants out of the no-sue clause, he or she can pony up $10,000 to do so."

Re: ICON A5 [Re: DeepFriar] #4568516
11/09/17 07:36 AM
11/09/17 07:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,421
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,421
Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
The guy must ,,,, wasn't told the part about it being possible to pull the wings off the thing.


Is that what happened? If so, there is no excuse for an airplane that fails structurally before it's pilot grays out or is pulling so many "G's" that the energy dissipation scrubs off speed.

Over the years, I've been in some severe turbulence and absurdly rough conditions. Not once did I experience any form of structural damage.

There is no question that a good number of accidents happen during so called
"maneuvering" . In other words, while showing off or horsing an airplane around.

Last edited by Cujet; 11/09/17 07:38 AM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: ICON A5 [Re: GregR] #4568539
11/09/17 08:16 AM
11/09/17 08:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
I looked at the article about the earlier crash and it said the A5 only has a 345 mile range, that sounds really low for an airplane to me!
I know that's comparable to a car's range, but there are a lot more gas stations than small airports and you're just stranded if you run out of gas in a car, not potentially plummeting from the sky.
I have only have a tiny amount of experience flying in small planes, from Dallas to OK and back with a couple of coworkers who were both private pilots maybe half a dozen times, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here...just seemed to me that range is really low.


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Re: ICON A5 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4568572
11/09/17 09:01 AM
11/09/17 09:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
billt460 Offline
billt460  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I looked at the article about the earlier crash and it said the A5 only has a 345 mile range, that sounds really low for an airplane to me!.......just seemed to me that range is really low.


Compared to other single engine light aircraft, it is. For example a Cessna 172, (the most produced light airplane ever built with over 44,000 manufactured to date), has a range of 736 miles. A Piper Arrow 897 miles. About the only thing that comes close is a Piper Super Cub, with a range of 360 miles. And it's a very slow flying airplane with a cruise speed of 97 knots, (112 MPH).

Another thing that gets me about that plane is the absence of outboard wing sponsons. It's mono hull design would seem to make it very easy to dip a wingtip into the water while taking off or landing in even a slight crosswind. If you look at about the closest thing to it, a Lake Aircraft Amphibian. It has outboard wing sponsons to aid in keeping the wings level while on the water. These are well proven aircraft, having been on the market for almost 50 years. By the way, in comparison to the Icon, it has a range of 1,036 miles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Renegade



Re: ICON A5 [Re: GregR] #4568627
11/09/17 09:56 AM
11/09/17 09:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,207
Outer Banks, NC
NormanBuntz Offline
NormanBuntz  Offline
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,207
Outer Banks, NC
It was reported yesterday that the plane manufacturer recently announced an advisory about flying below an altitude of 300 feet. From the video, Halladay clearly was not following that warning. Even with 700 hours of previous flight experience, he had only owned A5 aircraft for a month. It seems that he was unwisely pushing its limits at the time of the crash. What a terrific baseball pitcher he was! Another senseless death.


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Re: ICON A5 [Re: GregR] #4568703
11/09/17 10:52 AM
11/09/17 10:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 52
PPOS
d4d Offline
d4d  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 52
PPOS
Low time in airplane type should always be a caution for any pilot, regardless of their total time or experience. There is a reason why the airlines and the military utilize the High Minimums concept when transitioning from jet to jet, even with decades of experience and thousands of flight hours annotated in your logbook.

IMHO, the 700-800 hour experience level can be a problematic period for pilots. Speaking from experience, you are no longer a "basic" student pilot and may overestimate your ability to safely conduct low ceiling/viz approaches, over perform the aircraft, etc. As experienced aviators know, your window of comfortability expands/contracts based upon your time in type, recent currency, health status (colds, sleep patterns), flight route hazards/terrain, local/cross country flight, past experiences, etc.

IF the NTSB determines that Roy Halladay's own actions contributed to/caused his death, that would be tragic since he leaves behind a wife and kids. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened, nor, will it be the last.

Fly Safe,
d4d
"Advanced" student pilot


2014.5 Camry SE M1 EP 0W20 , Fram Ultra
2012 Corvette M1 EP 5W30 , Fram Ultra
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Re: ICON A5 [Re: GregR] #4568809
11/09/17 12:33 PM
11/09/17 12:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,626
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,626
Orlando, FL
Reminds me of JFK Jr...

Re: ICON A5 [Re: Cujet] #4569078
11/09/17 05:36 PM
11/09/17 05:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,435
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline
DeepFriar  Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,435
Georgia
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
The guy must ,,,, wasn't told the part about it being possible to pull the wings off the thing.


Is that what happened? If so, there is no excuse for an airplane that fails structurally before it's pilot grays out or is pulling so many "G's" that the energy dissipation scrubs off speed.

Over the years, I've been in some severe turbulence and absurdly rough conditions. Not once did I experience any form of


The only airplane you can't break is a fly by wire aircraft whose computer won't let you. Snap inputs can break a plane and many have done exactly that. In your example you had probably slowed to maneuvering for instance for that reason. The more I look at the video it looks like he put it into a dive he was to low to recover from. I can't really tell if there was a structural failure. But believe me, if you go at it stupidly enough, you can and will break it.

Re: ICON A5 [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4569085
11/09/17 05:46 PM
11/09/17 05:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,435
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline
DeepFriar  Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,435
Georgia
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I looked at the article about the earlier crash and it said the A5 only has a 345 mile range, that sounds really low for an airplane to me!


You're right, it is. But bear in mind this thing is positioned as a yacht toy or lake/seaside thrill machine. Big range and going from A to B are noy priorities. Going A to A while having fun is its mission.

Re: ICON A5 [Re: DeepFriar] #4569097
11/09/17 06:08 PM
11/09/17 06:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,421
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,421
Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar


The only airplane you can't break is a fly by wire aircraft whose computer won't let you.


We operate an Extra 300L. I honestly believe I will break before the Extra 300L does. I'm sure some pilot could figure out a way to pull the 25G necessary to snap the spar. That guy is not me. I can only handle 3G. Operated within it's limits, it's unlikely to fail.

I don't know what happened. But wing failure is unacceptable in any aircraft operated in any reasonable manner.

I really dislike aircraft that have a history of inflight breakups. Something about that just does not sit well with me...


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: ICON A5 [Re: GregR] #4569504
11/10/17 07:51 AM
11/10/17 07:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,788
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,788
Virginia Beach
wing failure?

or pilot error?

Hard to tell, but you need a whole lot more power to keep up that kind of maneuvering before running out of energy...

Another celebrity that thinks they're a pilot kills themselves. A tragedy, to be sure, but it'll happen again...


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Re: ICON A5 [Re: GregR] #4569560
11/10/17 08:46 AM
11/10/17 08:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,198
Midwest USA
LoneRanger Offline
LoneRanger  Offline
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,198
Midwest USA
Did he stall it? I thought the A5 had an AOA warning indicator?



'09 Subaru Forester ...................(QS HM 5W30)
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