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Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. #4566085
11/06/17 04:47 PM
11/06/17 04:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
A PBS Documentary. (FULL)


Last edited by StevieC; 11/06/17 04:48 PM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566158
11/06/17 06:21 PM
11/06/17 06:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,963
Sequim, WA
edhackett Offline
edhackett  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,963
Sequim, WA
What gives you pause?

I retired from the Desert Research Institute, mentioned as having done some research for them. I wasn't in the weather modification department, but worked directly with colleagues in the weather mod program on research as to the effectiveness of the Sierra Nevada seeding program. So, while not my main field, I picked up a lot of information about the seeding program. That clip was informative and factual. Maybe I can answer some questions that weren't covered.

Ed


Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566166
11/06/17 06:34 PM
11/06/17 06:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
I'm just not sure that we should be mucking with the weather. I also don't think it's a good idea to be burning propane in what will be mega amounts if they decide to use this mainstream for high drought areas.

I also don't like more chemical in the air.


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566227
11/06/17 07:37 PM
11/06/17 07:37 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,628
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,628
Indianapolis, IN
Sooooo .... we are going to now burn a fossil fuel, and add chemicals, to introduce them into the atmosphere, to attempt to modify the generation of precipitation. Ironic; I've been told for decades now that all the evils of weather and climate change are due to fossil fuel consumption, and the only solution is to get away from fossil fuels.

Ever hear of the law of unintended consequences?


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: dnewton3] #4566232
11/06/17 07:44 PM
11/06/17 07:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sooooo .... we are going to now burn a fossil fuel, and add chemicals, to introduce them into the atmosphere, to attempt to modify the generation of precipitation. Ironic; I've been told for decades now that all the evils of weather and climate change are due to fossil fuel consumption, and the only solution is to get away from fossil fuels.

Ever hear of the law of unintended consequences?


YES! thumbsup

Last edited by StevieC; 11/06/17 07:44 PM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: dnewton3] #4566433
11/07/17 04:44 AM
11/07/17 04:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sooooo .... we are going to now burn a fossil fuel, and add chemicals, to introduce them into the atmosphere, to attempt to modify the generation of precipitation. Ironic; I've been told for decades now that all the evils of weather and climate change are due to fossil fuel consumption, and the only solution is to get away from fossil fuels.

Ever hear of the law of unintended consequences?


The thread was quite innocent...why would a mod bring in that topic which shall not be discussed ?

Back to StevieC's post...

https://www.state.gov/t/isn/4783.htm

Seems funny to sign a treaty on that which we don't have, doesn't it ?

Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: Shannow] #4566453
11/07/17 05:37 AM
11/07/17 05:37 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,628
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,628
Indianapolis, IN
I'm not really sure where you believe the "innocence" was lost in my first post; just what is it that "shall not be discussed" that I brought up???
This is a thread about the underlying onset of unintended consequences, and IMO, a large dollop of irony ...
StevieC's concern is valid, IMO.

Let's consider other recent programs where we tried to solve a problem, hastily. Or, more to the point, may have leapt into a program not so much in ignorance, but in arrogance, promoting one technology over another, because the detracting concerns were voiced prior to the wide-spread deployment of such efforts.

Wind energy has had limited success; depends upon whom you want to believe, but ...
- one thing that cannot be denied is the amount of avian deaths attributed to wind-power generators. An unintended consequence. And not just barn birds by the tens-of-thousands, but protected birds like bald eagles, gold eagles, falcons, migratory birds, etc.
- additionally, wind energy has been now proven to be inconsistent, and when back-up power generation has to occur, it becomes grossly inefficient to restart boiler processes, adding to delays and greater emissions than had they just been left "on"
(From Forbes here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon...e/#4fdf9f2d1267)

Solar energy has it's pitfalls not in use, but production. Allow me to quote K. P. Green (irony of his name in regard to this topic a mere humorous coincidence ...)
"Solar cells do not offset greenhouse gases or curb fossil fuel use in the United States according to a new environmental book, Green Illusions (June 2012, University of Nebraska Press), written by University of California-Berkeley visiting scholar Ozzie Zehner. Green Illusions explains how the solar industry has grown to become one of the leading emitters of hexafluoroethane (C2F6), nitrogen trifluoride (NF3), and sulfur hexafluoride (SF6). These three potent greenhouse gases, used by solar cell fabricators, make carbon dioxide (CO2) seem harmless. Hexafluoroethane has a global warming potential that is 12,000 times higher than CO2, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). It is 100 percent manufactured by humans, and survives 10,000 years once released into the atmosphere. Nitrogen trifluoride is 17,000 times more virulent than CO2, and SF6, the most treacherous greenhouse gas, is over 23,000 times more threatening."
(http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/738098)



For decades we're told we need to stop buring fossil fuels, and quit putting chemicals into the air. And now with this cloud-seed program, we're going to be ever-increasingly shoving chemicals into the air, and burning fossil fuels to achieve the effect. This just drips of irony, and begs for an unintended consequence to rise up.







Last edited by dnewton3; 11/07/17 05:46 AM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: dnewton3] #4566459
11/07/17 05:48 AM
11/07/17 05:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I'm not really sure where you believe the "innocence" was lost in my first post; just what is it that "shall not be discussed" that I brought up???


You know full well...

"climate change" "fossil fuel", and yet you play all coy...

And then in the post that I'm replying to...

You are quite happy to be the harsh "stick to the rules" mod, and then quite happy to wheel your POV out as discussion, and then feign innocence.

Might be cute, but an abuse (again) of privilege (maybe check with the owner on where "climate change" sits in the list of accepted topics before replying, but you already know where that stands)

Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: dnewton3] #4566461
11/07/17 05:58 AM
11/07/17 05:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I'm not really sure where you believe the "innocence" was lost in my first post; just what is it that "shall not be discussed" that I brought up???
This is a thread about the underlying onset of unintended consequences, and IMO, a large dollop of irony ...
StevieC's concern is valid, IMO.

Let's consider other recent programs where we tried to solve a problem, hastily. Or, more to the point, may have leapt into a program not so much in ignorance, but in arrogance, promoting one technology over another, because the detracting concerns were voiced prior to the wide-spread deployment of such efforts.

Wind energy has had limited success; depends upon whom you want to believe, but ...
- one thing that cannot be denied is the amount of avian deaths attributed to wind-power generators. An unintended consequence. And not just barn birds by the tens-of-thousands, but protected birds like bald eagles, gold eagles, falcons, migratory birds, etc.
- additionally, wind energy has been now proven to be inconsistent, and when back-up power generation has to occur, it becomes grossly inefficient to restart boiler processes, adding to delays and greater emissions than had they just been left "on"
(From Forbes here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon...e/#4fdf9f2d1267)

Solar energy has it's pitfalls not in use, but production. Allow me to quote K. P. Green (irony of his name in regard to this topic a mere humorous coincidence ...)
"Solar cells do not offset greenhouse gases or curb fossil fuel use in the United States according to a new environmental book, Green Illusions (June 2012, University of Nebraska Press), written by University of California-Berkeley visiting scholar Ozzie Zehner. Green Illusions explains how the solar industry has grown to become one of the leading emitters of hexafluoroethane (C2F6), nitrogen trifluoride (NF3), and sulfur hexafluoride (SF6). These three potent greenhouse gases, used by solar cell fabricators, make carbon dioxide (CO2) seem harmless. Hexafluoroethane has a global warming potential that is 12,000 times higher than CO2, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). It is 100 percent manufactured by humans, and survives 10,000 years once released into the atmosphere. Nitrogen trifluoride is 17,000 times more virulent than CO2, and SF6, the most treacherous greenhouse gas, is over 23,000 times more threatening."
(http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/738098)



For decades we're told we need to stop buring fossil fuels, and quit putting chemicals into the air. And now with this cloud-seed program, we're going to be ever-increasingly shoving chemicals into the air, and burning fossil fuels to achieve the effect. This just drips of irony, and begs for an unintended consequence to rise up.


Bear in mind that this quote (unless "accidentally edited later", as sometimes happens when engaging with DNewton) was prior to my last post.

Calling into question the ROI/ROE, and environmental soundness on alternate technologies is and has always been labelled "P", borders on R, and has the stated rule of topics that shall not be discussed.

Calling into question policy for/against those technologies, or the CO2 impact is ALWAYS moderated as a violation of "P", along with that topic that shall not be discussed.

As to innocence...the OP posted legitimately about people intentionally trying to make rain...which is NOT that topic that shall not be discussed.

Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566499
11/07/17 07:01 AM
11/07/17 07:01 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,628
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,628
Indianapolis, IN
The thread is about unintended consequences and irony. I have given examples of such. StevieC's concern is that the technology exhibited in the cloud-seed program will cause an undesirable condition, either unforeseen (ignorance), or known but discounted (arrogance).

Sadly, your point is well made. It won't be long before some member just cannot help him/herself and has to drag politics into the mix. THAT is what is taboo. But this thread has not yet lost it's "innocence"; I would disagree with you there. But given time, it certainly will.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566505
11/07/17 07:09 AM
11/07/17 07:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content OP
StevieC  Online Content OP
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,311
ON, Canada eh?
I was only trying to get across that I don't think we should be mucking with nature and certainly not contributing to greenhouse gases and air pollution for the sake of up to 15% more rain as the documentary claims is possible. We don't know the long term effects and doing more harm over the long term for a short term gain is just stupid in my opinion.

I posted the PBS documentary because it was interesting technology and I was wondering how others felt about it in comparison to how I did with regards to its Pros/Cons. smile

Last edited by StevieC; 11/07/17 07:10 AM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566644
11/07/17 09:31 AM
11/07/17 09:31 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,676
Fort Lauderdale, FL
One horrible idea after another. They're not going to stop messing with the planet until the results resemble one of those bad post-apocalyptic movies.

What about the effect on areas that don't need 15% more rain? We've had more rain during our season than I can remember in recent times. What if we don't want 15% more rain just because a nearby area does?

What if the opposite is true, and "making" more rain in one area results in drought in another?


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566692
11/07/17 10:21 AM
11/07/17 10:21 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,517
Alberta, Canada
Smokescreen Offline
Smokescreen  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,517
Alberta, Canada
What chemicals are in the seeding agent...exactly ?


13 Civic Si 2.4L- 69Kkms(43Kmi)-PP,Wix
05 LeSabre 3.8L-210Kkms(134Kmi)-PP,Wix
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All with mpg > EPA
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: Smokescreen] #4566766
11/07/17 11:38 AM
11/07/17 11:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,963
Sequim, WA
edhackett Offline
edhackett  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,963
Sequim, WA
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
What chemicals are in the seeding agent...exactly ?


The most basic formula used in the type of generators shown in the video is silver iodide in acetone. Sodium iodide is sometimes added in various amounts to optimize the crystal formation under various conditions. Paradichlorobenzene is sometimes added in small amounts to make the AgI crystals slightly hygroscopic.

Ed


Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.
Re: Not sure how I feel about this - Weather Mod. [Re: StevieC] #4566822
11/07/17 12:43 PM
11/07/17 12:43 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,835
Columbus,Nebraska
Yah-Tah-Hey Offline
Yah-Tah-Hey  Offline
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,835
Columbus,Nebraska
Might as well throw taxpayers' $$$ down a rathole.

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