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Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time #4564831
11/05/17 12:21 PM
11/05/17 12:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Building3 Offline OP
Building3  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
I just discovered the 540RATBLOG on motor oils. His testing shows that high zinc/phosphorous motor oils may not be the best indicator of protection for flat tappet engines. The testing on wear judged by psi breakdown shows that some oils without the 1,000+ zinc levels are better than those with. Basically, the zinc/phosphorous levels are irrelevant. Is there anything wrong with his analysis? Any reason to doubt it? If its for real, then why not pick one of the top ten or twenty oils and not worry about the on-going reductions in zinc and phosphorous? Any thoughts? I am not a chemical engineer so I can't comment on the validity of the tests so that is why I am asking this forum.

Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Building3] #4564842
11/05/17 12:31 PM
11/05/17 12:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,683
Jacksonville, FL
FlyNavyP3 Offline
FlyNavyP3  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,683
Jacksonville, FL
It's been discussed here at length. There are issues with his test protocol mainly that his test rig doesn't accurately model the cam/lifter interface or any interface in an internal combustion engine.


Luke
P-3C and P-8A Maritime Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Instructor Tactical Coordinator and Mission Commander
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Building3] #4564864
11/05/17 12:52 PM
11/05/17 12:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3
nampa id
400m Offline
400m  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3
nampa id
Just exactly where is the 'Flat tappet' oil section? Asking for a friend.

Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Building3] #4564880
11/05/17 01:02 PM
11/05/17 01:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
Search on 540RAT and you'll get hours of reading.

You need enough ZDDP, but since there are like 16 different formulation of ZDDP, he can't tell you which he's testing and which didn't work the best.

There is much more going on inside an engine than just the cam/lifters. Although they are crucial. Literally million and millions of flat tappets have run fine on Jiffy Lube bulk oil.

Race motors are whole nuther thing. Need specs and build info before commenting there ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: BrocLuno] #4564890
11/05/17 01:09 PM
11/05/17 01:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Building3 Offline OP
Building3  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
The engines in my cars are either low mileage original, never opened; or rebuilt to as close to manufacturers specifications as possible. 1966 Mustang 289 2V, 1972 Plymouth 440 4V, for example. They are not hot rod engines, nor are they race engines. They are totally stock and for the rebuilt ones, as close to stock as possible. Thanks.

Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: FlyNavyP3] #4564998
11/05/17 03:09 PM
11/05/17 03:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Building3 Offline OP
Building3  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Even if his methodology is wrong, does his answer make sense? That there is more to preventing flat tappet cam wear than just zinc, or is it that zinc levels matter what other anti-wear chemicals may be in the oil?

Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Building3] #4565123
11/05/17 05:14 PM
11/05/17 05:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,803
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,803
Crawfordville FL
For breakin you want viscosity and zinc.

After breakin any SN oil seems to do well.


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 181 miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Building3] #4566784
11/07/17 12:00 PM
11/07/17 12:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,803
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,803
Balearic Islands , Spain
The 540RAT page is not the word of god himself, in fact as others have said his tests and his results are not the best guide.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Building3] #4566786
11/07/17 12:02 PM
11/07/17 12:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,803
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,803
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: Building3
The engines in my cars are either low mileage original, never opened; or rebuilt to as close to manufacturers specifications as possible. 1966 Mustang 289 2V, 1972 Plymouth 440 4V, for example. They are not hot rod engines, nor are they race engines. They are totally stock and for the rebuilt ones, as close to stock as possible. Thanks.

Probably Valvoline VR1 10W-30 would be a great oil for both, it has 1300ppm of Zddp so no worries abotu Zddp, a stock engine anyway specially one that is already well worn in doesn't need crazy high concentrations of Zddp..


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Building3] #4568886
11/09/17 12:47 PM
11/09/17 12:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
Scdevon Offline
Scdevon  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
Originally Posted By: Building3
Even if his methodology is wrong, does his answer make sense? That there is more to preventing flat tappet cam wear than just zinc, or is it that zinc levels matter what other anti-wear chemicals may be in the oil?


This is what I always argue. A Pennzoil engineer (for example) could defend Pennzoil in a court of law that Pennzoil's additive package protects at least as well or better at, say, half the zinc level that oils had decades ago when you view the additive package in it's entirety.

If low zinc oils were fatal to flat tappets, wouldn't major oil companies place a warning label on their newer generations of oil to avoid a class action lawsuit from people using it in older cars? There are tens of millions of flat tappet cars still out there on the road. Toyota to this day still manufactures bucket and shim overhead cam engines, don't they? Buckets and shims are flat tappets in my book. It seems like all this obsession about zinc levels is a little overdone.


2003 Mustang Mach 1. 32V 4.6 Liter. Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W30
1970 Mustang Convertible 302-2V Auto (Stock) M/C 10W30
1970 VW Beetle 1600 DP
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4568909
11/09/17 01:10 PM
11/09/17 01:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,324
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,324
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
The 540RAT page is not the word of god himself, in fact as others have said his tests and his results are not the best guide.

It is far worse than just "not the best guide", actually it is no guide at all. His premise is wrong, his testing methodology is wrong and worse of all, his data presentation and conclusion is even more wrong.

For the OP here is some reading:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4344412/1

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4533661/1

The bottom line is that when properly presented, all the results from his "test" are statistically equal. There is no discernible difference between any of the oils he tested, therefore all of them should be ranked equal. Or not ranked at all if you really want to be truthful.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: Scdevon] #4568914
11/09/17 01:17 PM
11/09/17 01:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,324
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,324
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
If low zinc oils were fatal to flat tappets, wouldn't major oil companies place a warning label on their newer generations of oil to avoid a class action lawsuit from people using it in older cars? There are tens of millions of flat tappet cars still out there on the road. Toyota to this day still manufactures bucket and shim overhead cam engines, don't they? Buckets and shims are flat tappets in my book. It seems like all this obsession about zinc levels is a little overdone.

Is there any evidence at all that flat tappet engines require high zinc levels after break-in?


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: kschachn] #4568921
11/09/17 01:26 PM
11/09/17 01:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,968
OH
SatinSilver Offline
SatinSilver  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,968
OH
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Is there any evidence at all that flat tappet engines require high zinc levels after break-in?


My guess is that you already know the answer to your own question. Which is kind of different that you're asking it in the first place. Not just in this thread but many, many others as well.

Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: SatinSilver] #4568933
11/09/17 01:35 PM
11/09/17 01:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,324
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,324
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Is there any evidence at all that flat tappet engines require high zinc levels after break-in?

My guess is that you already know the answer to your own question. Which is kind of different that you're asking it in the first place. Not just in this thread but many, many others as well.

Not at all, I do not know. In many threads I have seen people assume it is required, but I've also seen posts where it is stated that the requirement is only for break-in.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Flat Tappet Motor Oil One More Time [Re: kschachn] #4568964
11/09/17 02:01 PM
11/09/17 02:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
Scdevon Offline
Scdevon  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
Originally Posted By: kschachn

Is there any evidence at all that flat tappet engines require high zinc levels after break-in?


Obviously some zinc is needed and it's just accepted that SOME zinc in engine oil is beneficial even after break in.

I used the Toyota bucket and shim example a few posts ago. What does Toyota do at the factory to "Break In" their buckets and shims and cams? (Nothing). I don't even think Toyota even uses assembly lube in their engines other than just regular engine oil. What procedure did GM use in 1970 to "break in" an LS6 camshaft in a Super Stock engine with .520 total lift / 316 duration? (Nothing other than maybe some zinc-rich assembly lube).

They certainly didn't hold the throttle at 2000 RPM for 20 minutes on the assembly line in 1970 on an LS6 Chevelle.


2003 Mustang Mach 1. 32V 4.6 Liter. Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W30
1970 Mustang Convertible 302-2V Auto (Stock) M/C 10W30
1970 VW Beetle 1600 DP
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