Recent Topics
Milwaukee Fuel M12 Ratchet 1/4” vs 3/8”
by Snagglefoot. 12/15/18 10:16 AM
Hifly Hf 805
by chrisri. 12/15/18 10:00 AM
Preferred 5.3L L83 Oil Filter
by zfasts03. 12/15/18 09:58 AM
sonata plastic fork starter failed three times.
by JustinH. 12/15/18 09:17 AM
HVAC Problems
by WTJackalope. 12/15/18 09:15 AM
Rough Idle after short trip
by Datarock. 12/15/18 09:07 AM
Homelite 360
by mobilaltima. 12/15/18 09:04 AM
Lovin' the Etec!
by IndyFan. 12/15/18 06:10 AM
Air Impact Wrench
by BenZahel. 12/15/18 05:19 AM
Luber finer 750 bypass oil filter info
by BigRich954. 12/15/18 03:59 AM
Ford Pickup Front Wheel Bearings 2WD
by benjamming. 12/14/18 10:52 PM
GMC oil fill tube
by Redright9. 12/14/18 10:24 PM
Where do I buy Toto toilets? That has them!
by Vern_in_IL. 12/14/18 10:04 PM
Best filter cutter for the price?
by DONWATERS. 12/14/18 09:38 PM
5W-40 vs 10W-30 for a 2018 Audi A4
by jcr1293. 12/14/18 09:25 PM
Gave up on quadrajet electric choke today...
by leroyd92. 12/14/18 08:54 PM
2015 Odyssey - Which synthetic ATF?
by AngryScientist. 12/14/18 07:56 PM
Hyundai extended my warranty
by ernied. 12/14/18 07:33 PM
Newest Members
Spkrdctr, torchredone12, JNG, Edmundo, NEKGuy
66688 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
81 registered members (2004tdigls, 92saturnsl2, 4WD, 4ever4d, 2002 Maxima SE, 7 invisible), 2,016 guests, and 37 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,104
Posts4,927,857
Members66,688
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Navy Ship Collision Report Findings #4563940
11/04/17 12:35 PM
11/04/17 12:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,838
Central Texas
sleddriver Offline OP
sleddriver  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,838
Central Texas
I haven't read the report, just this article. However, if accurate it doesn't paint a nice picture.

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Two accidents that claimed the lives of 17 sailors and wounded dozens more resulted from complete breakdowns in standard Navy procedures and poor decision-making by officers and sailors on the bridge of the two warships, according to a Navy report obtained by Defense News.

The report reveals that both collisions came after critical failures of officers and sailors on the bridge and raises troubling questions about the basic proficiency of the Japan-based 7th Fleet and the surface Navy as a whole.

In both incidents, sailors on the bridge failed to sound a ship-wide alarm notifying the crew of danger, which is a standard Navy procedure.

Ships at sea must sound five short blasts of the ship’s whistle to alert the crew and the other ship of a coming collision. That did not occur in either collision. Neither the crew members below deck nor the other ships involved had any warning from the Navy that their ships were headed for disaster, the reports found.

Also, neither bridge’s watch standers sought to make bridge-to-bridge radio communication with the approaching ship, which is also a standard Navy procedure.
Quote:
The June 17 collision between the Fitzgerald and the motor vessel ACX Crystal off the coast of Japan was the result of a complete failure of safeguards put in place to prevent at-sea accidents, as well as clear violations of standing orders to inform the commanding officer when approaching ships pose a safety risk.

The McCain’s Aug. 21 collision with the oil and chemical tanker Alnic MC near the Strait of Malacca appeared to be the result of a series of mistakes by the ship’s bridge watch-standers and heavy risks assumed by the commanding officer in a busy shipping lane.


Navy Crews at Fault In Fatal Collisions

Read the whole thing....


1998 Volvo V70 T5 228,880 mi. Original Owner.
M1 10W-30 HM
"It's never a mistake to buy tools, defined broadly. They're not a cost, they're an investment." - J.B. Peterson
Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4563956
11/04/17 12:48 PM
11/04/17 12:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,684
'murica
Ethan1 Offline
Ethan1  Offline
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,684
'murica
I still find it hard to believe that these collisions are totally unrelated to the tankers that have been reporting implausible GPS readings off the coast of Russia. I think a rogue state is spoofing GPS. shrug

Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4563966
11/04/17 01:01 PM
11/04/17 01:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,571
ME
eljefino Offline
eljefino  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,571
ME
Even if they could hack GPS I have to imagine they have numerous other methods of navigation and if they don't jive that should put them on high alert real fast.

Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4563976
11/04/17 01:14 PM
11/04/17 01:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 318
FL USA
Blueskies123 Offline
Blueskies123  Offline
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 318
FL USA
Yeah, like looking out the window

Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: Ethan1] #4563994
11/04/17 01:29 PM
11/04/17 01:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
I think a rogue state is spoofing GPS. shrug


Yes but the Navy doesn't want to admit to it. Right now they are quietly trying to make the GPS system spoof-proof.

This whole thing reminds me of the movie "Die Hard" where the terrorists rigged the planes altimeters to read higher than they actually were. If you remember, a couple of planes slammed into the runway because the pilots thought they were higher than they were.

Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4564038
11/04/17 02:20 PM
11/04/17 02:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,520
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,520
...
The services ranks were being decimated in the last several years forcing a fast track to get officers into rank to take commands or responsibilities they were unprepared for. Anyone here with military contacts will know the massive RIF (reduction in force) that took place. I believe this is the major reason for these accidents.

I’m trying not to be political here but some administrations in the past pushed for the “peace dividend”. Military numbers should be reduced at a slow rate so as not to create the imbalance of less senior personnel against those with rank and experience.

I served in the USCG from 1976-1980. President Carter got his peace dividend then which caused drastic reduction in training. Fuel was rationed as well. Many vessels just stayed tied up at their piers.

Fortunately this is being stopped and reversed as of now but it’s too late for those who lost their lives or were injured. The officers and crew charged with UCMJ will never get their reputations back or have been drummed out when they were put into positions and situations they should have never been in.


I do agree that there is more to this whole story. GPS spoofing should not be discounted out.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: eljefino] #4564051
11/04/17 02:35 PM
11/04/17 02:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,935
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,935
Orlando, FL
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Even if they could hack GPS I have to imagine they have numerous other methods of navigation and if they don't jive that should put them on high alert real fast.


Yep, and collision avoidance aids , thermal imaging, radar, emergency flares, state of the art navigation, etc....

If you're in very busy shipping lanes you need multiple heads on a swivel (enlisted and officer) looking for any ships in the area that can crash in your Navy ship.

Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: Ethan1] #4564140
11/04/17 04:29 PM
11/04/17 04:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,283
Elizabethtown, Pa
Al Offline
Al  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,283
Elizabethtown, Pa
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
I still find it hard to believe that these collisions are totally unrelated to the tankers that have been reporting implausible GPS readings off the coast of Russia. I think a rogue state is spoofing GPS. shrug

What does that have to do with failure of multiple levels of lookouts to not see a giant tanker??
As someone said how about looking out the window.

I am sure their "Root Cause Analysis" was painful.

Last edited by Al; 11/04/17 04:31 PM.

Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4564200
11/04/17 05:30 PM
11/04/17 05:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,521
New England
gathermewool Offline
gathermewool  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,521
New England
I can see by some of the posts that some of you have never been to sea...

Carnival cruise doesn't count! crackmeup


'14 Forester XT FA20DIT (Cobb Stage 1)
Edge 0W-40 + FU filter (64,774 miles)
'15 Legacy FB25 (OEM Stage, uh, neg. 7?)
Edge 0W-20 + FU filter (40,803 miles)
Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: gathermewool] #4564257
11/04/17 06:40 PM
11/04/17 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
^ I was on the USS Tripoli when it went from San Diego to San Fransisco and Vancouver; does that count ? smile

Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4564279
11/04/17 07:07 PM
11/04/17 07:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
Yeah, but the radar watch alone should have seen the vector and alerted the whole bridge ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: BrocLuno] #4564296
11/04/17 07:40 PM
11/04/17 07:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,942
Connecticut
69GTX Offline
69GTX  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,942
Connecticut
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Yeah, but the radar watch alone should have seen the vector and alerted the whole bridge ...


That radar information, along with other sources, could have been sent to the bridge....and might not have been improperly utilized. From reading those accounts it doesn't appear that either ship thought they were in extreme danger until a collision was unavoidable (not even sounding ship wide collision alarms or 5 short blasts on the ship's whistle to alert all vessels within ear shot). Fitzgerald's top side lookouts weren't on the side of the ship where the highest risk of collision was coming from. Sad to hear that

...in the Fitzgerald’s combat information center, which displays inputs from the ship’s weapons systems and radars, the watch standers there failed to “tune and adjust their radars to maintain an accurate picture of other ships in the area,” the report found. That means CIC failed to track the multiple ships exiting the channel.

Fitzgerald’s lookouts failed as well, with the investigation indicating the sailor or sailors assigned to look out for hazards were literally looking the other way the whole time.

“Watch-standers performing lookout duties did so only on Fitzgerald’s port side, not on the starboard side where the three ships were present with the risk of collision,” the report reads.


I think the "fleet up" program for the CO's and XO's will get a serious look after these incidents. And I agree that the OpTempo these days is excessive. It's 30-40% higher than when I was doing runs back in the 1980's. Where is the time to get quality candidates, properly train them, and then retain them?


----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs
Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4564316
11/04/17 08:08 PM
11/04/17 08:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,935
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,935
Orlando, FL
Quote:
"The thing that stood out to me was in both situations they had minimal situational awareness,” said Hoffman. “In the case of Fitzgerald, nearly criminal negligence on the part of the bridge watch team. And in neither case did the ship sound five short blasts or raise the general alarm to let anyone know they were in danger."


Officers in charge need to be court martialed for Dereliction of Duty, put in jail, once sentence is served..... take these idiots out to the exact location of crash (deaths of 17 sailors) and forced to walk the plank.

Where is the leadership, accountability and professionalism from these officers overseeing their ship when it's out at sea ?


Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: Mr Nice] #4564345
11/04/17 08:31 PM
11/04/17 08:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,520
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,520
...
“Where is the leadership, accountability and professionalism from these officers overseeing their ship when it's out at sea ?”



The fast track process spurred on by a shortage of command officers takes these young officers and shoots them up the ranks quickly with no time to gain experience. I’ve heard that some officers were made XO 6-8 months earlier and then transferred to command a ship. It used to be years of experience was had before these men and women achieved that rank and responsibility.


But with that said, multiple failures at CIC and on the bridge make me wonder what kind of training these sailors get now. This is a much different military than when I served 37 years ago. Some things should not change such as lookouts reporting any traffic or obstacles. The Navy needs to get back to basics.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Navy Ship Collision Report Findings [Re: sleddriver] #4564716
11/05/17 10:11 AM
11/05/17 10:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,935
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,935
Orlando, FL
Quote:
As the Fitzgerald sailed into the busy waters near Japan it cut through a channel with specific rules for navigation known as a a traffic separation scheme. The ship did not have the navigation patterns on its charts and repeatedly drove across the bow of ships exiting the channel.

The Fitzgerald’s commanding officer was in his cabin prior to the collision, which took place at 1:30 a.m. The report documents numerous mistakes made by the officer of the deck, who is the main officer in charge of safe navigation while on watch.

At one point, the Fitz crossed the bow of an oncoming merchant ship at a range of less than 650 yards — fewer than four ship-lengths — but the officer of the deck never informed the captain, a violation of standing orders that requires the skipper to be summoned to help oversee hazardous conditions.






Page 1 of 2 1 2

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™