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#4563616 - 11/04/17 06:35 AM FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro)
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Looking at two fairly serious VOAs on Oil-Club.ru. Google Translate only goes so far, but it reveals enough to pique one's interest.

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
Red Line Euro Series 5w-30

Both also apparently have esters, and this is one aspect on which I wanted to compare them. At least one person on that forum seems to be very confident that the M1 is around 5% ester, referring to a number (35) that I think I see on the VOA. Can anyone tell whether this seems reasonable?

The same number on the Red Line VOA is much higher (95) but I don't know what it means. Does it suggest the Red Line has higher ester content? If so, by how much (roughly)? And how might that mesh with the fact that the Mobil 1 has a much higher TAN (usually higher with ester content)? One forum user suggests that the esters in the Red Line are apparently very neutral; what does that mean for how they might behave in the formulation?
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2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
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#4563717 - 11/04/17 09:38 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 10554
Loc: Idaho
Oil ru is a fun site.
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#4563722 - 11/04/17 09:41 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
Dyusik Online   content


Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 1868
Loc: US-WA
A 5.44 and 6.4 tbn. And people don't freak out.
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#4563946 - 11/04/17 01:38 PM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: Dyusik]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Dyusik
A 5.44 and 6.4 tbn. And people don't freak out.

These are mid-SAPS low ash oils. They're not for applications requiring big TBN.
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#4564377 - 11/04/17 10:21 PM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18947
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Well, I can't see or extract the actual analysis, but nothing really definitive stands out but here are some comments:

1) The low NOACK is an indication that some good esters are involved
2) It used to be that the oxidation number was indicative of the presence of esters, but new additive chemistries, which are themselves esters, cloud that assumption.

As to the percentage of esters in each product, no determination can be made at this time.

But I would bet that Redline has more ester content.



Edited by MolaKule (11/04/17 10:21 PM)
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#4564385 - 11/04/17 10:33 PM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: MolaKule]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Got it. Thanks, Mola. Makes sense.

I take it the difference in TAN doesn't say much, either?

Any thoughts on the potential meaning of some esters being more neutral than others?
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2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4564431 - 11/05/17 01:07 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4848
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Got it. Thanks, Mola. Makes sense.

I take it the difference in TAN doesn't say much, either?

Any thoughts on the potential meaning of some esters being more neutral than others?

UOA I did with M1 5W30 ESP has bit higher TAN. Other UOA I saw are pretty much same, higher TAN.
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#4564529 - 11/05/17 06:52 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: edyvw]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Yep.

Here, I'm talking about the fact that Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 has a higher TAN than Red Line Euro Series 5w-30, which at least someone on Oil-club.ru says might imply that Red Line is using more neutral esters. I'm wondering what (if anything) can be discerned from that about ester content and function between the two oils.
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#4565163 - 11/05/17 05:50 PM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4848
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yep.

Here, I'm talking about the fact that Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 has a higher TAN than Red Line Euro Series 5w-30, which at least someone on Oil-club.ru says might imply that Red Line is using more neutral esters. I'm wondering what (if anything) can be discerned from that about ester content and function between the two oils.

Only thing that should matter to consumers is that Mobil1 5W30 ESP is approved by slew of manufacturers. Redline is not.
Actually, Redline has new 5W30 Euro Professional that is approved by some manufacturers, and NOACK is 9%. IMO there are two possibilities:
1. RL could not get approvals doing business as usual.
2. Phillips66 watered down RL, but still claims 100% ester.
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#4565182 - 11/05/17 06:06 PM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: edyvw]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Actually, Redline has new 5W30 Euro Professional that is approved by some manufacturers, and NOACK is 9%. IMO there are two possibilities:
1. RL could not get approvals doing business as usual.
2. Phillips66 watered down RL, but still claims 100% ester.

Good point.
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#4566399 - 11/07/17 01:11 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: edyvw]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18947
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=d00df00d]Yep.

Here, I'm talking about the fact that Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 has a higher TAN than Red Line Euro Series 5w-30, which at least someone on Oil-club.ru says might imply that Red Line is using more neutral esters.
2. Phillips66 watered down RL, but still claims 100% ester.


1) The differences in TAN is most likely due to the different additive packages.

2) Redline never claimed 100% esters. There is a thread on BITOG in which we had a long discussion about what Redline says and what people have assumed.

3) I have never heard of Neutral Esters. Any idea what that dude meant?
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#4566402 - 11/07/17 01:34 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18947
Loc: Iowegia - USA
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#4566440 - 11/07/17 05:01 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Let me rephrase: the person seemed to be saying the esters Red Line is using in that formulation might be more neutral than average. As in, those esters might contribute less to TAN than other esters might. Is that an idea that makes sense?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4566725 - 11/07/17 11:03 AM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18947
Loc: Iowegia - USA
ok, that is starting to make sense.

Esters by themselves have an average TAN of 0.05, which is why I am suggesting the TAN numbers are most effected by the additive package.
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Hatito Hakiwisilaasamamo Waswasimamo Howisiwapani - Shawnee for: "Hello," "Good Morning," and "here's hoping you feel good." smile

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#4566812 - 11/07/17 12:35 PM Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: MolaKule]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Ah, okay. So yeah, the idea that the TAN difference might be down to the esters is probably... unwarranted. To put it mildly.

What kinds of additives contribute to TAN?
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