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FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) #4563616
11/04/17 06:35 AM
11/04/17 06:35 AM
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d00df00d Offline OP
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Looking at two fairly serious VOAs on Oil-Club.ru. Google Translate only goes so far, but it reveals enough to pique one's interest.

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
Red Line Euro Series 5w-30

Both also apparently have esters, and this is one aspect on which I wanted to compare them. At least one person on that forum seems to be very confident that the M1 is around 5% ester, referring to a number (35) that I think I see on the VOA. Can anyone tell whether this seems reasonable?

The same number on the Red Line VOA is much higher (95) but I don't know what it means. Does it suggest the Red Line has higher ester content? If so, by how much (roughly)? And how might that mesh with the fact that the Mobil 1 has a much higher TAN (usually higher with ester content)? One forum user suggests that the esters in the Red Line are apparently very neutral; what does that mean for how they might behave in the formulation?


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4563717
11/04/17 09:38 AM
11/04/17 09:38 AM
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Canyon County Idaho
CT8 Offline
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Oil ru is a fun site.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4563722
11/04/17 09:41 AM
11/04/17 09:41 AM
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US-WA
Dyusik Offline
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A 5.44 and 6.4 tbn. And people don't freak out.


95 Cherokee 190K DELO 10W30, XG8
07 IS250 106K STP syn HM 10w30, FULL
04 YZF-R1 19K DELO 15w40, XG7317
99 HD XL1200S 21K VR1 20w50, NG1515
14 RX450h 40k Idemitsu 0w20, 57047
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: Dyusik] #4563946
11/04/17 01:38 PM
11/04/17 01:38 PM
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d00df00d Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Dyusik
A 5.44 and 6.4 tbn. And people don't freak out.

These are mid-SAPS low ash oils. They're not for applications requiring big TBN.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4564377
11/04/17 10:21 PM
11/04/17 10:21 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Well, I can't see or extract the actual analysis, but nothing really definitive stands out but here are some comments:

1) The low NOACK is an indication that some good esters are involved
2) It used to be that the oxidation number was indicative of the presence of esters, but new additive chemistries, which are themselves esters, cloud that assumption.

As to the percentage of esters in each product, no determination can be made at this time.

But I would bet that Redline has more ester content.


Last edited by MolaKule; 11/04/17 10:21 PM.

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: MolaKule] #4564385
11/04/17 10:33 PM
11/04/17 10:33 PM
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d00df00d Offline OP
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Got it. Thanks, Mola. Makes sense.

I take it the difference in TAN doesn't say much, either?

Any thoughts on the potential meaning of some esters being more neutral than others?


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4564431
11/05/17 01:07 AM
11/05/17 01:07 AM
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Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Got it. Thanks, Mola. Makes sense.

I take it the difference in TAN doesn't say much, either?

Any thoughts on the potential meaning of some esters being more neutral than others?

UOA I did with M1 5W30 ESP has bit higher TAN. Other UOA I saw are pretty much same, higher TAN.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: edyvw] #4564529
11/05/17 07:52 AM
11/05/17 07:52 AM
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d00df00d Offline OP
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Yep.

Here, I'm talking about the fact that Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 has a higher TAN than Red Line Euro Series 5w-30, which at least someone on Oil-club.ru says might imply that Red Line is using more neutral esters. I'm wondering what (if anything) can be discerned from that about ester content and function between the two oils.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4565163
11/05/17 06:50 PM
11/05/17 06:50 PM
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Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yep.

Here, I'm talking about the fact that Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 has a higher TAN than Red Line Euro Series 5w-30, which at least someone on Oil-club.ru says might imply that Red Line is using more neutral esters. I'm wondering what (if anything) can be discerned from that about ester content and function between the two oils.

Only thing that should matter to consumers is that Mobil1 5W30 ESP is approved by slew of manufacturers. Redline is not.
Actually, Redline has new 5W30 Euro Professional that is approved by some manufacturers, and NOACK is 9%. IMO there are two possibilities:
1. RL could not get approvals doing business as usual.
2. Phillips66 watered down RL, but still claims 100% ester.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: edyvw] #4565182
11/05/17 07:06 PM
11/05/17 07:06 PM
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d00df00d Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Actually, Redline has new 5W30 Euro Professional that is approved by some manufacturers, and NOACK is 9%. IMO there are two possibilities:
1. RL could not get approvals doing business as usual.
2. Phillips66 watered down RL, but still claims 100% ester.

Good point.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: edyvw] #4566399
11/07/17 02:11 AM
11/07/17 02:11 AM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=d00df00d]Yep.

Here, I'm talking about the fact that Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 has a higher TAN than Red Line Euro Series 5w-30, which at least someone on Oil-club.ru says might imply that Red Line is using more neutral esters.
2. Phillips66 watered down RL, but still claims 100% ester.


1) The differences in TAN is most likely due to the different additive packages.

2) Redline never claimed 100% esters. There is a thread on BITOG in which we had a long discussion about what Redline says and what people have assumed.

3) I have never heard of Neutral Esters. Any idea what that dude meant?


"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4566402
11/07/17 02:34 AM
11/07/17 02:34 AM
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"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4566440
11/07/17 06:01 AM
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d00df00d Offline OP
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Let me rephrase: the person seemed to be saying the esters Red Line is using in that formulation might be more neutral than average. As in, those esters might contribute less to TAN than other esters might. Is that an idea that makes sense?


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: d00df00d] #4566725
11/07/17 12:03 PM
11/07/17 12:03 PM
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ok, that is starting to make sense.

Esters by themselves have an average TAN of 0.05, which is why I am suggesting the TAN numbers are most effected by the additive package.


"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: FTIR/oxidation/TAN & esters (M1 ESP/Red Line Euro) [Re: MolaKule] #4566812
11/07/17 01:35 PM
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d00df00d Offline OP
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Ah, okay. So yeah, the idea that the TAN difference might be down to the esters is probably... unwarranted. To put it mildly.

What kinds of additives contribute to TAN?


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
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