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Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX #4561334
11/01/17 02:24 PM
11/01/17 02:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,290
Western Washington
Palut Offline OP
Palut  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,290
Western Washington
I've got a set of Hakkapeliitta R2s on my 2015 WRX that I'm considering replacing with Michelin Xi3s. I'm looking for your thoughts on whether or not it would be worth it.

The Hakkas are very impressive in the snow, but they feel downright scary in rain above 35-40. I've rarely felt less grip in a tire. While I'm frequently in mountain snow, in the Seattle area our winters are mostly 35-45 and rainy, so I find myself really pussyfooting it around, wondering if I've actually increased the danger by buying these tires. I'm afraid that I bought the wrong tool for these particular conditions, but don't want to waste the cash on replacements if the competition won't be any better. I've only run them for two winters so far, and they're nowhere near worn out.

How do you feel that Xi3s do on wet roads with temperatures above freezing? Do they perform well enough to be worth a switch?

Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Palut] #4561347
11/01/17 02:45 PM
11/01/17 02:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 513
Vienna, VA
TinyVoices Offline
TinyVoices  Offline
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 513
Vienna, VA
The general Altima arctic is good in the rain and above freezing temps. I have the old design on the mr2 in the winter and they are very solid in rain. The new design is supposed to be great too.


1993 Toyota MR2 Hardtop N/A - 160k miles - Valvoline Max Life 5w30
2006 Toyota Matrix XR AWD (Fiancee) - 130k miles - Valvoline Max Life 5w30
Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Palut] #4561399
11/01/17 04:06 PM
11/01/17 04:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 412
MA, USA
krzyss Offline
krzyss  Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 412
MA, USA
I think you picked wrong type of winter tire.
Michelin xice are the same type.
I think you may be better served with performance winter tires.

Krzys

Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: krzyss] #4561415
11/01/17 04:26 PM
11/01/17 04:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,318
USA
slacktide_bitog Offline
slacktide_bitog  Offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,318
USA
What's the deepest snow you drive in? Is your tire size 235/47-17?

Tires that may suit your needs:
Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3
Hankook iCept Evo2 W320
Pirelli Sottozero

Originally Posted By: krzyss
I think you picked wrong type of winter tire.
Michelin xice are the same type.
I think you may be better served with performance winter tires.

Krzys


approved

The xice won't be any better in warm temps.

Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: TinyVoices] #4561458
11/01/17 05:08 PM
11/01/17 05:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 288
Michigan
Spartanfool Offline
Spartanfool  Offline
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 288
Michigan
Originally Posted By: TinyVoices
The general Altima arctic is good in the rain and above freezing temps. I have the old design on the mr2 in the winter and they are very solid in rain. The new design is supposed to be great too.


I have the Altima Arctics on my Saab 92x (WRX clone), and they run great in wet and snow. Not so great on ice, but I don't see many ice storms in Michigan.

Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Palut] #4561473
11/01/17 05:27 PM
11/01/17 05:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 968
MO
FirstNissan Offline
FirstNissan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 968
MO
I had the altima artics on my nissan versa in NJ 5 years ago. Amazing winter tire and made my FWD economy car handle like a 4x4 on steroids in the snow. Excellent grip in dry/slush/snow as well as good tread life and good value for money. If i needed winter tires in KY, I would buy them in a heartbeat.

They were so good that I recommended them to my brother who lives in Boston, hes been using them ever since.


2017 Toyota Sienna (Hers)
2017 Toyota Sienna (His)
Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Palut] #4561480
11/01/17 05:39 PM
11/01/17 05:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Palut
I've got a set of Hakkapeliitta R2s on my 2015 WRX that I'm considering replacing with Michelin Xi3s. I'm looking for your thoughts on whether or not it would be worth it.

The Hakkas are very impressive in the snow, but they feel downright scary in rain above 35-40. I've rarely felt less grip in a tire. While I'm frequently in mountain snow, in the Seattle area our winters are mostly 35-45 and rainy, so I find myself really pussyfooting it around, wondering if I've actually increased the danger by buying these tires. I'm afraid that I bought the wrong tool for these particular conditions, but don't want to waste the cash on replacements if the competition won't be any better. I've only run them for two winters so far, and they're nowhere near worn out.

How do you feel that Xi3s do on wet roads with temperatures above freezing? Do they perform well enough to be worth a switch?

Michelin as a tire is light years ahead of Nokian. I am talking about structure, longevity etc.
That being said, Xi3 is also tire made for certain conditions. While R2 is probably best in deep snow and slush, I hear a lot of complaints about wet, flat spotting and premature wear (well this comes with super soft compound).
Xi3 is made more for roads that are cleaned but as any cleaned roads in winter have tendency to freeze. So, unless you go thru foot of snow often. probably Xi3 will be better. They are better in snow then performance winter tires, but also better in dry and wet then winter tires like Blzizak or Altimax etc.
I just put on my BMW Latitude Xi2 (had Blizzak DM-V2 past two winters) and improvement in dry and wet is ridiculous compare to Blizzak. Based on tread, I do not expect to be as good ind eep snow and slush as Blizzak, but again, we have more then 300 sunny days in Colorado, so dry performance is also important.
I would say based on your needs XI3 will be good. Check also Continental Wintercontact SI! Continental makes best winter tires in Europe (we do not get those) so I bet they used a lot of know-how for SI model.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Palut] #4561649
11/01/17 09:01 PM
11/01/17 09:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,967
MTL, CANADA
Rolla07 Offline
Rolla07  Offline
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,967
MTL, CANADA
I disagree with edyvw. I am going into my 4th season on Hakka R2's and am at 6/32's remaining. The tread is extremely soft. Friend of mine ran XI 3s and tread life is similar over similar mileage (both run at same mfr pressures). The x ice's may hold slight edge on ice (although no tire is great on ice unless they are studded per my experience.

To the OP, I would suggest looking at the WRG3 all weather tire based on your conditions. I think it would address your conditions better (snow and rain and temps that arent that cold). Or..a performance winter like the others mentionned would also be a good choice. I think the Nokian R2's fair below avg in wet and dry. They are to this day my fave winters ive ever had but wonder if something better now exists. I have debated all weathers but our weather can get nasty..35 inches of snow on our last storm last year, tons of black ice, blowing snow and -30 celsius at times. Performance winter or all weather wrg3 seem like a good fit for you.

Last edited by Rolla07; 11/01/17 09:04 PM.

2007 Corolla Red Pearl 155k miles
PP 0w20 & ST 4967

Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: krzyss] #4561742
11/01/17 11:17 PM
11/01/17 11:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,690
Idaho
SubLGT Offline
SubLGT  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,690
Idaho
Originally Posted By: krzyss
I think you picked wrong type of winter tire.
Michelin xice are the same type.
I think you may be better served with performance winter tires.

Krzys


I agree. Get a performance winter.

The R2 and Xi3 have very similar performance on wet pavement.

From the 2016 winter tire testing at Test World (Finland):

Quote:
Wet Braking from 80 km/hr (meters)

31.2 Continental performance winter
34.5 Landsail studless
38.4 Continental
38.6 Pirelli
39.3 Gislaved
40.3 Goodyear studless
40.4 Michelin
41.0 Toyo
41.4 Hankook
41.6 Nokian
41.7 Kumho
42.3 Bridgestone
42.3 Goodyear
43.3 Pirelli studless
44.3 Bridgestone studless
44.3 Continental studless
44.4 Hankook studless
44.9 Sava studless
44.9 Yokohama studless
45.0 Michelin Xi3 studless
45.4 Nokian R2 studless
46.7 Nankang studless


Wet Course Lap Time (seconds)

35.4 Continental performance winter
38.1 Pirelli
38.5 Landsail
39.0 Continental
39.5 Gislaved
39.5 Goodyear studless
39.7 Michelin
39.9 Continental studless
40.0 Nokian
40.0 Pirelli studless
40.1 Nokian R2 studless
40.3 Bridgestone
40.3 Goodyear
40.4 Hankook
40.4 Toyo
40.5 Kumho
40.9 Michelin Xi3 studless
40.9 Sava studless
41.2 Hankook studless
41.2 Nankang studless
41.4 Yokohama studless
41.7 Bridgestone studless


Dry Braking from 80 km/hr (meters)

35.0 Continental performance winter
36.8 Landsail studless
38.3 Bridgestone studless
38.5 Michelin Xi3 studless
38.6 Nokian R2 studless
38.7 Continental studless
38.8 Toyo
38.9 Michelin
38.9 Yokohama studless
39.0 Goodyear studless
39.1 Pirelli studless
39.3 Hankook studless
39.4 Kumho
39.4 Nokian
39.7 Sava studless
40.2 Continental
40.2 Pirelli
40.5 Gislaved
40.5 Nankang studless
40.8 Bridgestone
41.5 Goodyear
41.6 Hankook


http://www.skstuds.ca/2016/10/14/the-eng...-test/#more-898

Last edited by SubLGT; 11/01/17 11:23 PM.
Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Rolla07] #4561755
11/02/17 12:05 AM
11/02/17 12:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
I disagree with edyvw. I am going into my 4th season on Hakka R2's and am at 6/32's remaining. The tread is extremely soft. Friend of mine ran XI 3s and tread life is similar over similar mileage (both run at same mfr pressures). The x ice's may hold slight edge on ice (although no tire is great on ice unless they are studded per my experience.

To the OP, I would suggest looking at the WRG3 all weather tire based on your conditions. I think it would address your conditions better (snow and rain and temps that arent that cold). Or..a performance winter like the others mentionned would also be a good choice. I think the Nokian R2's fair below avg in wet and dry. They are to this day my fave winters ive ever had but wonder if something better now exists. I have debated all weathers but our weather can get nasty..35 inches of snow on our last storm last year, tons of black ice, blowing snow and -30 celsius at times. Performance winter or all weather wrg3 seem like a good fit for you.

Will see, I might pull of trigger on R2 during Thanksgiving sale for wife's car. Longevity is not priority for her, nor dry performance, but deep snow and slush is.
However, I stand by comment that Nokian is not even close in overall quality to Michelin. I had Nokians WR D3 in Europe, and there are far better tires then that one.
So, we will see about R2's.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: edyvw] #4561832
11/02/17 06:09 AM
11/02/17 06:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,967
MTL, CANADA
Rolla07 Offline
Rolla07  Offline
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,967
MTL, CANADA
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
I disagree with edyvw. I am going into my 4th season on Hakka R2's and am at 6/32's remaining. The tread is extremely soft. Friend of mine ran XI 3s and tread life is similar over similar mileage (both run at same mfr pressures). The x ice's may hold slight edge on ice (although no tire is great on ice unless they are studded per my experience.

To the OP, I would suggest looking at the WRG3 all weather tire based on your conditions. I think it would address your conditions better (snow and rain and temps that arent that cold). Or..a performance winter like the others mentionned would also be a good choice. I think the Nokian R2's fair below avg in wet and dry. They are to this day my fave winters ive ever had but wonder if something better now exists. I have debated all weathers but our weather can get nasty..35 inches of snow on our last storm last year, tons of black ice, blowing snow and -30 celsius at times. Performance winter or all weather wrg3 seem like a good fit for you.

Will see, I might pull of trigger on R2 during Thanksgiving sale for wife's car. Longevity is not priority for her, nor dry performance, but deep snow and slush is.
However, I stand by comment that Nokian is not even close in overall quality to Michelin. I had Nokians WR D3 in Europe, and there are far better tires then that one.
So, we will see about R2's.


The WRD3 is far better than what, the WRG3? What do you mean by overall quality? Alot of reviews give the slight edge to the R2's over the X ice 3's. Id say neck and neck with Michelin, so unsure how overall quality is different.


2007 Corolla Red Pearl 155k miles
PP 0w20 & ST 4967

Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Palut] #4561842
11/02/17 06:29 AM
11/02/17 06:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,481
Ontario, Canada
mightymousetech Offline
mightymousetech  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,481
Ontario, Canada
The XIce3 will be worse in pretty much every way, and will not be any better in the warm/damp.

Sounds like you need a "performance" winter tire like the Michelin Pilot Alpin. But you are trading off real winter performance for better in the warm/dry/damp.


Mighty Mouse Tech
BMW Tech, Former Acura Tech
2010 Civic Si Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
2013 BMW 135i M Sport Edition Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Palut] #4561926
11/02/17 08:20 AM
11/02/17 08:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,690
Idaho
SubLGT Offline
SubLGT  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,690
Idaho
Originally Posted By: Palut
...they feel downright scary in rain above 35-40. I've rarely felt less grip in a tire.


An increase in tire pressure might help a little. Nokian recommends that their winter tires be inflated 3psi above the what the vehicle manufacturer specifies on the door placard.

https://www.nokiantyres.com/innovation/facts-about-tyres/tyre-inflation-pressures/

Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: Rolla07] #4562246
11/02/17 03:49 PM
11/02/17 03:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
I disagree with edyvw. I am going into my 4th season on Hakka R2's and am at 6/32's remaining. The tread is extremely soft. Friend of mine ran XI 3s and tread life is similar over similar mileage (both run at same mfr pressures). The x ice's may hold slight edge on ice (although no tire is great on ice unless they are studded per my experience.

To the OP, I would suggest looking at the WRG3 all weather tire based on your conditions. I think it would address your conditions better (snow and rain and temps that arent that cold). Or..a performance winter like the others mentionned would also be a good choice. I think the Nokian R2's fair below avg in wet and dry. They are to this day my fave winters ive ever had but wonder if something better now exists. I have debated all weathers but our weather can get nasty..35 inches of snow on our last storm last year, tons of black ice, blowing snow and -30 celsius at times. Performance winter or all weather wrg3 seem like a good fit for you.

Will see, I might pull of trigger on R2 during Thanksgiving sale for wife's car. Longevity is not priority for her, nor dry performance, but deep snow and slush is.
However, I stand by comment that Nokian is not even close in overall quality to Michelin. I had Nokians WR D3 in Europe, and there are far better tires then that one.
So, we will see about R2's.


The WRD3 is far better than what, the WRG3? What do you mean by overall quality? Alot of reviews give the slight edge to the R2's over the X ice 3's. Id say neck and neck with Michelin, so unsure how overall quality is different.

Overall quality: weight of tire, strength of construction, flat spotting, longevity, balancing etc.
Michelin is there IMO the best product. Bridgestone for example makes really good tires, it is often put in same category as Michelin, until you see that Bridgestone needs 5-6 additional lbs per tire to achieve similar results.
As for D3, it is European tire. it is good, do not get me wrong, but not even close to Continental TS830 or 850, or Good Year Ultra Grip (European Ultra Grip).

Last edited by edyvw; 11/02/17 03:54 PM.

15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Replace Hakkapeliitta R2s on WRX [Re: mightymousetech] #4562249
11/02/17 03:52 PM
11/02/17 03:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
edyvw Offline
edyvw  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,548
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
The XIce3 will be worse in pretty much every way, and will not be any better in the warm/damp.

Sounds like you need a "performance" winter tire like the Michelin Pilot Alpin. But you are trading off real winter performance for better in the warm/dry/damp.

Xi3 will be worse in deep snow and slush then R2, Continental SI, Blzizak, but none of those tires can hold a candle to Michelin in dry and especially in warm weather!
I have now on BMW Xi2, and compare to Blizzak in warm weather it is night and day. I do not expect it will be on par with Blizzak in deep snow and slush, but dry, and especially warm weather? Michelin will blast out any snow tire.
And I need actually hard core tires since I love to ski in inclement weather, but winter driving is not only driving thru 1ft of snow.

Last edited by edyvw; 11/02/17 03:57 PM.

15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 0W20 EP+ 2qt of M1 0W40 + FRAM Ultra).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
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