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AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL #4561033
11/01/17 08:24 AM
11/01/17 08:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 97
Nor Cal
Swifty Offline OP
Swifty  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 97
Nor Cal
Just noticed the PDS was out for the XL line while ordering some stuff this morning for those who care.

Enjoy!

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g1404.pdf


2013 Civic SI Sedan Amsoil 5/30 ASL Fram Ultra 83k miles

2018 Acura RDX Tech, VCM disabled, oil TBD...

2003 Toyota Highlander M1 10/30HM Fram Ultra Filter (wife's) 167k miles...retired
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561047
11/01/17 08:38 AM
11/01/17 08:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,094
Colorado
Kuato Offline
Kuato  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,094
Colorado
Good stuff.

I see you're using 10w30 across both vehicles. thumbsup

Going 10k or a different distance for your OCIs?


Thick vs Thin test: 15k / 43k miles complete
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561066
11/01/17 08:53 AM
11/01/17 08:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,816
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,816
Kendall, FL
Very nice specs. Noak (10W30) and flash point (all) are stellar.


18 Sportage LX: M1AP 5W-20 + M1-104A
13 SFS 2.0T: PP 10W-30 + XG9688
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Kuato] #4561070
11/01/17 08:59 AM
11/01/17 08:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 97
Nor Cal
Swifty Offline OP
Swifty  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 97
Nor Cal
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Good stuff.

I see you're using 10w30 across both vehicles. thumbsup

Going 10k or a different distance for your OCIs?


Once a year on the Highlander which is anywhere between 7-10k. So far on the Civic I am following the OLM which has been pushing 9k. I'm good with those intervals for now.

UOA on the civic was rather boring(which is good)all single digit wear numbers at 8600 mile interval using Amsoil 0/30AZO. Don't really need a zero weight in my climate used it since new though. Running the 10/30 ATM now for no apparent reason. Might compare UOA's, I don't expect to see much difference other than(10/30)holding viscosity a little better maybe.


2013 Civic SI Sedan Amsoil 5/30 ASL Fram Ultra 83k miles

2018 Acura RDX Tech, VCM disabled, oil TBD...

2003 Toyota Highlander M1 10/30HM Fram Ultra Filter (wife's) 167k miles...retired
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561103
11/01/17 09:46 AM
11/01/17 09:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content
StevieC  Online Content
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
I don't see the need for the XL line in the U.S. because you are protected by the M.M. act that says that the OEM has to prove it was the failure of the lubricant not to perform.

So that said why wouldn't you run SSO if your running Amsoil and have the best protection because they aren't confined to API regulations?

shrug


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: StevieC] #4561112
11/01/17 10:00 AM
11/01/17 10:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,910
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,910
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I don't see the need for the XL line in the U.S. because you are protected by the M.M. act that says that the OEM has to prove it was the failure of the lubricant not to perform.

So that said why wouldn't you run SSO if your running Amsoil and have the best protection because they aren't confined to API regulations?

shrug



An OEM can and is well within their rights to require a specific approval/certification under MM, they are just not allowed to dictate the choice of a specific lubricant unless they provide it for free; they can't require a specific brand (like theirs) to be used for replacement or service parts, they can however and are well within their rights, to define and require an approval for a guaranteed minimum level of quality, even if that is just API SN.

The XL line exists for ease of compliance with that scenario, the same reason as to why their Euro oils are now formally approved. Not getting "into it" with an OEM is certainly preferable than having to play Law and Order the home game. Even if you win, you are without the vehicle for the duration and the manufacturer is going to have significantly better legal resources than your average consumer, ergo it is easier to just forgo that risk and use something that meets the parameters defined by the OEM in the first place while under warranty.

Now of course, AMSOIL offers their own warranty with their signature line, so if somebody is comfortable leaving that ball in AMSOIL's court, then that scenario is certainly a viable alternative.

At the reduced price and generous compliance with OEM change intervals, as well as having the API approval, I think AMSOIL's OE and XL lines give the brand more exposure than it would have selling only their highest-tier products. It gives people who may be hesitant to deviate from the terms defined in their manual access to AMSOIL products and subsequently works as a gateway into those higher-tier offerings once the factory warranty is out of the picture.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561124
11/01/17 10:12 AM
11/01/17 10:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content
StevieC  Online Content
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
Why wouldn't the Magnuson Moss act not step in? (I'm asking, not arguing)

As for being without your vehicle you would be anyway with any warranty claim. Sure it might be longer while the engine is inspected but it's not like we are talking a year or anything. They will know quickly what caused it and where the fault lies. As least my dad and I can so I would assume a grease monkey at the dealer could too.

Last edited by StevieC; 11/01/17 10:14 AM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561129
11/01/17 10:16 AM
11/01/17 10:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content
StevieC  Online Content
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
Now as for us in Canada it's a different story because we don't have the same protection so I get it here, although it's a risk I take because I have confidence in Amsoil's warranty, a history of UOA's in current/past applications showing it's working properly and I have my dad (licensed mechanic) and receipts to back it all up. Plus my cousin is a lawyer so.... LOL

Last edited by StevieC; 11/01/17 10:17 AM.

'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: StevieC] #4561237
11/01/17 12:03 PM
11/01/17 12:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 613
DFW
JustN89 Offline
JustN89  Offline
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 613
DFW
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Why wouldn't the Magnuson Moss act not step in? (I'm asking, not arguing)

As for being without your vehicle you would be anyway with any warranty claim. Sure it might be longer while the engine is inspected but it's not like we are talking a year or anything. They will know quickly what caused it and where the fault lies. As least my dad and I can so I would assume a grease monkey at the dealer could too.

In theory, yes, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act should step in. However, it's how the Act is worded that provides uncertainty for the vehicle owner.

To keep it simple (and within the framework of my understanding), the MMWA states that it is the responsibility of the Manufacturer to prove that the use of an aftermarket part (in this case, a non-API certified oil) caused the damages. If they cannot prove that, the warranty must be upheld.

Before we proceed, however, understand that in the U.S., "breach of contract" is a civil matter and the rule of thumb governing civil cases is "by preponderance of evidence" meaning that a majority of the evidence must point in a certain direction. In a fictitious case, if 51% of the evidence says a defendant is not guilty, the defendant would be considered "not guilty" even though 49% of the evidence showed that the defendant was guilty. This will be important as we go forward.

If you make a powertrain warranty claim, the Manufacturer is going to look for ways to get out from their warranty burden. It's all about money. If you used a non-API certified oil, they will look for any reason that the use of this oil caused the damages. At this point, it's a calculated gamble. If they feel like they can prove "by preponderance of evidence" that the oil is what caused the damage, they will deny the warranty claim and put the onus on the vehicle owner to fight the denial. At this point, it puts the vehicle owner in a difficult position of weighing the cost of fighting this though the courts and paying those associated fees if they are ruled against versus simply paying the cost of repairs. This doesn't include the time it would take to get through the courts, which would be entirely too long for many who rely on their vehicle for daily operation.

Where the MMWA can help the vehicle owner is if the failure is one that could be considered "common", where the Manufacturer knows that they cannot pin the failure on the non-API certified oil because there are other cases of failure of the same part in which API certified oil was used. An example would be the Theta II engine recalls faced by Hyundai recently. If you experienced a failure that fell under the recall and you used Amsoil (in this instance), you would likely not be denied coverage due to the sheer numbers of failures wherein oil with the proper certification was used. If you were denied coverage, it would be easier for the vehicle owner to fight the denial due to the "preponderance of evidence" that motor oil is not the root cause for the Theta II issues which were found to be caused by issues in the manufacturing process.

TL;DR- Yes, the MMWA is their to protect the consumer. The way it is worded, however, does leave a window of opportunity for Manufacturers to take a calculated risk and deny coverage. If you feel that you have been improperly denied coverage, you can file a complain with the State Attorney General, a local Consumer Protection Office, or the Federal Trade Commission.

EDIT: here are some links for reading on the issue, if you want further information. Also, I'm not a lawyer so this is simply my understanding of the law.

FTC
Cornell Law
FTC filing regarding API and dexos certification

Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: StevieC] #4561368
11/01/17 03:16 PM
11/01/17 03:16 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 742
SW Missouri
OldCowboy Offline
OldCowboy  Offline
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 742
SW Missouri
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Why wouldn't the Magnuson Moss act not step in? (I'm asking, not arguing)


Actually, Magnuson Moss is not nearly as powerful as you might think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act#Remedies_under_the_Act

If a dealer voids a warranty and you think he is wrong, you have a number of avenues open to you.

1) Binding arbitration. This may be required by either the manufacturer's warranty or the dealership sales documents.
2) Suit in Federal Court. Unfortunately, the amount in controversy must be at least $50,000 to sue in Federal Court under the Act.
3) Suit in state court. Under Federal Law there is no minimum amount in controversy to sue in state court, but under state law there may be.

The good news is if you win, the dealer or manufacturer has to pay all of your legal epenses.

Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561504
11/01/17 06:00 PM
11/01/17 06:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 135
Iowa
tsduke Offline
tsduke  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 135
Iowa
I've had one engine replaced under powertrain warranty and not once was I asked what oil brand, viscosity, oci or for any documentation.

Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561535
11/01/17 06:37 PM
11/01/17 06:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 83
Vermont
Toptierpao Offline
Toptierpao  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 83
Vermont
Originally Posted By: Swifty
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Good stuff.




UOA on the civic was rather boring(which is good)all single digit wear numbers at 8600 mile interval using Amsoil 0/30AZO. Don't really need a zero weight in my climate used it since new though. Running the 10/30 ATM now for no apparent reason. Might compare UOA's, I don't expect to see much difference other than(10/30)holding viscosity a little better maybe.


The AZO 0W30 is their premium base stock which is why it is a little bit more money.They do not state so on their website,but,it is rated for better fuel economy over their xxW20 oils. I just finished a 10k mile run with it in a GDI engine and have just recently put in ATM 10W30 for its 4.1 noack and an experiment in curtailing FD.

The ATM is the same base stock where,if they did not add viscosity improvers to it,would pass for a monograde oil.....10W30/SAE 30.

Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: Swifty] #4561618
11/01/17 08:16 PM
11/01/17 08:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content
StevieC  Online Content
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
Thanks JustN89 and OldCowboy! thumbsup


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: StevieC] #4561625
11/01/17 08:26 PM
11/01/17 08:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,910
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,910
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Thanks JustN89 and OldCowboy! thumbsup


Yup, they both explained it well. Generally, if it is covered under warranty, you'd end up with a loaner vehicle and reasonably quick turnaround on the repair (after all, the manufacturer is paying the dealership for it and they want to pay the least amount possible). On the other hand, if they refuse coverage, whether you believe it to be on reasonable grounds or not, you do not have that courtesy extended to you. So you are out of pocket on a rental and you choose to either front the cost for the repair if you are confident you will ultimately win your dispute, or you go through the proceedings, which may be long and drawn-out, without your vehicle, driving a rental in hopes to recoup that expense with a victory.

This is why it is generally easier to just follow the word of the manual while under warranty so that one is not exposed to those potential complications.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: AMSOIL PDS OUT FOR XL [Re: OVERKILL] #4561631
11/01/17 08:34 PM
11/01/17 08:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
StevieC Online content
StevieC  Online Content
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,178
ON, Canada eh?
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Thanks JustN89 and OldCowboy! thumbsup


Yup, they both explained it well. Generally, if it is covered under warranty, you'd end up with a loaner vehicle and reasonably quick turnaround on the repair (after all, the manufacturer is paying the dealership for it and they want to pay the least amount possible). On the other hand, if they refuse coverage, whether you believe it to be on reasonable grounds or not, you do not have that courtesy extended to you. So you are out of pocket on a rental and you choose to either front the cost for the repair if you are confident you will ultimately win your dispute, or you go through the proceedings, which may be long and drawn-out, without your vehicle, driving a rental in hopes to recoup that expense with a victory.

This is why it is generally easier to just follow the word of the manual while under warranty so that one is not exposed to those potential complications.


I'll continue to take the risk for the benefits of longer engine life in my opinion using a product that is tuned to be the best it can be and not tuned to licensing standards where there can be compromises.

On-top of that if an OEM tried to refuse me warranty simply because it was a non-licensed API oil and it was baseless otherwise they would regret it and I would make it my life's mission to tarnish their reputation with the legal and media contacts within the family. LOL


'18 Dodge Grand Caravan GT - AMSOIL SS 5w20
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF
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