Oil Research for Hydraulic Flat Tappet Ford FE

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I'm having a Ford FE engine built, and the builder strongly recommends hydraulic flat tappets for the best reliability. He's had good success with Honda Motorcycle Oil (GN4), which, from my research has less that the desired 1200 ppm zinc and 1000 ppm phosphorous.

Two oils that have historically been used for this type of application are Shell Rotella T4 15w40 and Chevron Delo 15W40. The information that I've found online on current configurations on these two oils has been confusing to say the least, so I decided to contact Shell and Chevron to get what they have to say about the current formulations.

I'll post more complete data later, but in a nutshell the Shell Rotella T4 15W40 still has acceptable zinc and phosphorous, whereas the Chevron formulation has zinc and phosphorous below 1000 ppm, but says their new anti-friction additives are still acceptable for flat-tappet applications.
 
Shell Rotella 15W40 plus 1 can cam break-in lube. Don't let it idle at start up, keep at least 2000 RPM. Follow what engine builder says on changing out oil early to get start up metals out. I would also run cam lube every oil change.
 
Here is one answer for you:

https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/classic-and-vintage/articles/flat-tappet-cams-in-classic-cars/

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Sorry as I can't contribute an answer to your question, but I have a question to you.

I'm helping a friend work on his boat with a rare engine. It's a Ford 427 side oiler and it is in need of a complete rebuild. His dad had got it from his friend who had it in an AC Cobra that was wrecked in the 1960's.

We pulled the engine last week and started pulling the heads off. I have most of the engine apart and will send it out shortly for the rebuild. I have used Bacas in South San Francisco for my performance work but they closed down. I've used Dino Fry in the past but he is also gone.

Being in the S.F. Bay Area, I was wondering which machine shop you are using and if you would recommend them?
 
I grew up in Millbrae and I knew those guys. I remember when Fry worked at the Chevrolet dealer. All guys are getting old and retiring. Bruno got bought out by
Reggie Jackson and all that .
 
Is there not a roller conversion for this engine that would mitigate the issue of having to be concerned about ZDDP levels? Something from Crane or Crower perhaps?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is there not a roller conversion for this engine that would mitigate the issue of having to be concerned about ZDDP levels? Something from Crane or Crower perhaps?
^^^ This! I would definitely look into a roller cam setup; plenty of them at Summit Racing .
 
We do alot of FE's here at the Speed Shop. We use Lunati Roller cams and lifters with good results. If it must remain a Flat tappet, Brad Penn (now Penn Grade) oils are recommended.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is there not a roller conversion for this engine that would mitigate the issue of having to be concerned about ZDDP levels? Something from Crane or Crower perhaps?


Crower (and probably others) makes a solid street roller and pin oiled solid roller lifters. It is what I run.
 
Cen-Pe-Co Oil , OR Brad Penn for any older high performance engines, Valvoline also makes a high zinc oil VR1 20w50 but i have never tried it
 
Originally Posted By: Kool1
Sorry as I can't contribute an answer to your question, but I have a question to you.

I'm helping a friend work on his boat with a rare engine. It's a Ford 427 side oiler and it is in need of a complete rebuild. His dad had got it from his friend who had it in an AC Cobra that was wrecked in the 1960's.

We pulled the engine last week and started pulling the heads off. I have most of the engine apart and will send it out shortly for the rebuild. I have used Bacas in South San Francisco for my performance work but they closed down. I've used Dino Fry in the past but he is also gone.

Being in the S.F. Bay Area, I was wondering which machine shop you are using and if you would recommend them?

My engine is a side-oiler as well, but it is a new BBM casting. I’m actually using an engine builder back east. I’ve heard good things about Tom Lucas of FE Specialties in Auburn, CA but I don’t have any personal experience with him.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is there not a roller conversion for this engine that would mitigate the issue of having to be concerned about ZDDP levels? Something from Crane or Crower perhaps?

There are rollers available, but this builder has had reliability issues with many of the hydraulic roller lifters. He’s been building FEs for 50 years, so I’m trusting him at this point. I suppose given that I should just use his recommended Honda GN4 oil as well, but it seems safer to find something with ZDDP levels closer to the levels when the engine was designed.
 
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
What kind of ramp profile and spring pressures are you running?


Not sure about the ramp profile, but I’ve been told it’s fairly mild with stock springs and rockers. The cam is very similar to Comp Cams grind XE274H.
 
Originally Posted By: ACHiPo
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is there not a roller conversion for this engine that would mitigate the issue of having to be concerned about ZDDP levels? Something from Crane or Crower perhaps?

There are rollers available, but this builder has had reliability issues with many of the hydraulic roller lifters. He’s been building FEs for 50 years, so I’m trusting him at this point. I suppose given that I should just use his recommended Honda GN4 oil as well, but it seems safer to find something with ZDDP levels closer to the levels when the engine was designed.


A lot of the old oils didn't really have high ZDDP levels (from the period the engine was designed). The concern is more for high-performance grinds with more aggressive profiles, IE steeper ramps, more lift and subsequently heavier springs to keep it all in check, putting more pressure on the lifter/camshaft interface.

Certain roller manufacturers are better than others, as is the case with flat tappet lifters, cam cores and the like. I understand the desire to defer to the builder's advice of course, but I don't think one can ignore the fact that all modern pushrod engines are roller, which includes late model Ford small blocks before they were discontinued, the entire LSx family, the Chrysler HEMI family....etc. A quality (and that part is key) roller setup will allow for a superior lobe profile with very little concern for oil selection and of course imposes less friction and wear in the valvetrain, which is why OEM's went that route starting in the 80's
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ACHiPo
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Is there not a roller conversion for this engine that would mitigate the issue of having to be concerned about ZDDP levels? Something from Crane or Crower perhaps?

There are rollers available, but this builder has had reliability issues with many of the hydraulic roller lifters. He’s been building FEs for 50 years, so I’m trusting him at this point. I suppose given that I should just use his recommended Honda GN4 oil as well, but it seems safer to find something with ZDDP levels closer to the levels when the engine was designed.


A lot of the old oils didn't really have high ZDDP levels (from the period the engine was designed). The concern is more for high-performance grinds with more aggressive profiles, IE steeper ramps, more lift and subsequently heavier springs to keep it all in check, putting more pressure on the lifter/camshaft interface.

Certain roller manufacturers are better than others, as is the case with flat tappet lifters, cam cores and the like. I understand the desire to defer to the builder's advice of course, but I don't think one can ignore the fact that all modern pushrod engines are roller, which includes late model Ford small blocks before they were discontinued, the entire LSx family, the Chrysler HEMI family....etc. A quality (and that part is key) roller setup will allow for a superior lobe profile with very little concern for oil selection and of course imposes less friction and wear in the valvetrain, which is why OEM’s went that route starting in the 80's
smile.gif



I spend quite a lot of time on cam selection for my FE. It was, however, sometime ago so things may have changed. The biggest problem with HYD Rollers was that due to the valve train mass of the FE (at least that is what people smarter than me attribute it to) there is a very fine line between enough spring pressure to control float and too much preventing the HYD from functioning correctly. This is why I went with a mild solid roller.

I’d have to run the numbers, but running an XE274 like camshaft with stock springs does not sound like a good idea to me. Comps XE line tends to have fairly fast ramps. If I were going to run a flat tappet cam now days I’d run an high quality old school cam with slow ramps and reasonable spring pressures, I would break it in meticulously according to the manufacturers instructions using any one of the already mentioned lubricants and a camshaft break in additive. I’d use the components recommended by the camshaft manufacturer.

The OP doesn’t mention the actual engine builder, however there is one not far from me that has been building them (primarily for Cobra’s) for many years. If that was my engine builder then I would trust him to know what works and follow his recommendations meticulously. That probably goes for most engine builders, but not all.

http://www.fordification.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46540

http://www.fordification.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46539
 
Long thread from guys who live and breathe Ford FEs. After the first page, the amount of flame gets a bit stark; to put it mildly, these guys do not hold back.

But the comments from Lykins who literally builds them for a living, and the post titled "Follow good mechanical techniques." are worth reading, along with one or more comments to be sure it'll fire quickly.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1507829733

Kevin
 
Originally Posted By: ag_ghost
Long thread from guys who live and breathe Ford FEs. After the first page, the amount of flame gets a bit stark; to put it mildly, these guys do not hold back.

But the comments from Lykins who literally builds them for a living, and the post titled "Follow good mechanical techniques." are worth reading, along with one or more comments to be sure it'll fire quickly.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1507829733

Kevin



My takeaway from that thread is that one should probably go roller
lol.gif
 
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