Water heater woes
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Originally Posted By: Gebo
I’d be picking up a wet vac real soon.
Absolutely , water on the floor , quick run to Harbor Freight .
I am OK with the crimp ring / brass barb PEX fittings . Can not bring myself to trust the push on PEX fittings , although they are probably fine .
As I said , you can rent the crimp tool for 3/4" down , quite reasonably .
You can also buy the braided flex lines , with National Pipe Thread fittings or push on fittings .
Best of luck to you all ,
I’d be picking up a wet vac real soon.
Absolutely , water on the floor , quick run to Harbor Freight .
I am OK with the crimp ring / brass barb PEX fittings . Can not bring myself to trust the push on PEX fittings , although they are probably fine .
As I said , you can rent the crimp tool for 3/4" down , quite reasonably .
You can also buy the braided flex lines , with National Pipe Thread fittings or push on fittings .
Best of luck to you all ,
Come on, you know everything that uses gas must be handled carefully. That includes water heaters. Yours is already a problem so replace it as quickly as possible, because water isn't the only thing that can leak out. You haven't smelled gas ... yet. Keep in mind that gas can go KABOOM. It's not a good idea to risk your home and family.
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Originally Posted By: Donald
The good plumbers have stopped sweating copper. They crimp the elbows or tees with a $3000 crimp tool.
I'm not buying that line. House built 2005 and still used copper throughout, here's new unit installed last week.
Glad the plumber sweated the fittings. Looks professional and good.
The good plumbers have stopped sweating copper. They crimp the elbows or tees with a $3000 crimp tool.
I'm not buying that line. House built 2005 and still used copper throughout, here's new unit installed last week.
Glad the plumber sweated the fittings. Looks professional and good.
You may find a difference in installation methods between new construction plumbers and repair plumbers .
I personally am not a plumber , just a DIY'er , but I sweat the connections . Can not say I am great at it , but I struggle along .
Best of luck ,
I personally am not a plumber , just a DIY'er , but I sweat the connections . Can not say I am great at it , but I struggle along .
Best of luck ,
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: Donald
The good plumbers have stopped sweating copper. They crimp the elbows or tees with a $3000 crimp tool.
I'm not buying that line. House built 2005 and still used copper throughout, here's new unit installed last week.
Glad the plumber sweated the fittings. Looks professional and good.
They still use copper but crimp the fittings. Homeowners will not being doing this because of the cost of the crimper.
Two reasons, you can set all the pipes in place then crimp them all one after the other. Dripping water does not mess up a crimp joint, but may mess up sweated joint. I think the crimpers started to be used in the past 5 years.
Originally Posted By: Donald
The good plumbers have stopped sweating copper. They crimp the elbows or tees with a $3000 crimp tool.
I'm not buying that line. House built 2005 and still used copper throughout, here's new unit installed last week.
Glad the plumber sweated the fittings. Looks professional and good.
They still use copper but crimp the fittings. Homeowners will not being doing this because of the cost of the crimper.
Two reasons, you can set all the pipes in place then crimp them all one after the other. Dripping water does not mess up a crimp joint, but may mess up sweated joint. I think the crimpers started to be used in the past 5 years.
^ I guess I don't get out much, but I've never seen standard sweat/solder fit copper fittings be crimped instead of sweated.
Originally Posted By: Warstud
Doesn't really matter what is wrong with it now if it's leaking. When it leaks it needs replacing.
+1 for the above comment.
Doesn't really matter what is wrong with it now if it's leaking. When it leaks it needs replacing.
+1 for the above comment.
Originally Posted By: Donald
The good plumbers have stopped sweating copper. They crimp the elbows or tees with a $3000 crimp tool.
I still see them sweating copper all the time on new episodes of This Old House and Ask This Old House.
The good plumbers have stopped sweating copper. They crimp the elbows or tees with a $3000 crimp tool.
I still see them sweating copper all the time on new episodes of This Old House and Ask This Old House.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would not use copper on hot water unless I had to because of code. Too much of a heat sink.
Some prefer copper because it's been around a long time. Some people don't trust Pex or CPVC, in the old days there was some that was approved but then later they found it had issues. Those other two have been around long enough that it's probably fine.
I would not use copper on hot water unless I had to because of code. Too much of a heat sink.
Some prefer copper because it's been around a long time. Some people don't trust Pex or CPVC, in the old days there was some that was approved but then later they found it had issues. Those other two have been around long enough that it's probably fine.
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would not use copper on hot water unless I had to because of code. Too much of a heat sink.
Some prefer copper because it's been around a long time. Some people don't trust Pex or CPVC, in the old days there was some that was approved but then later they found it had issues. Those other two have been around long enough that it's probably fine.
You're talking about polybutylene (PB). It is gray plastic that is fully flexible like PEX; it looks a lot like PEX but it is not. The pipe had a tendency to blow out, also the PB crimp on fittings (plastic with metal crimp rings, again looks a lot like PEX but PEX uses metal fitting bodies) would crack. Either event could flood the house causing very expensive water damage. There were big lawsuits in the 1990s.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would not use copper on hot water unless I had to because of code. Too much of a heat sink.
Some prefer copper because it's been around a long time. Some people don't trust Pex or CPVC, in the old days there was some that was approved but then later they found it had issues. Those other two have been around long enough that it's probably fine.
You're talking about polybutylene (PB). It is gray plastic that is fully flexible like PEX; it looks a lot like PEX but it is not. The pipe had a tendency to blow out, also the PB crimp on fittings (plastic with metal crimp rings, again looks a lot like PEX but PEX uses metal fitting bodies) would crack. Either event could flood the house causing very expensive water damage. There were big lawsuits in the 1990s.
Update here.
Last year it started getting worse. I'd re-light the pilot, but it finally gave out to the point where it wouldn't re-light. So we looked into what to get once we could afford a replacement. I just shut off the water to it and kind of lived without running hot water, although now it's kind of hard to take a shower at the gym since it's closed.
So we had a plumber come in for another issue and we asked about installing a water heater. My wife heard from a friend who recommended Bradford White, which only sells to contractors. Earlier we were thinking of maybe buying a water heater at Home Depot or Lowe's, getting it delivered, and having a plumber come in to install it and then take away the old heater. When asked he said he could order a Bradford White.
Later we contacted him again to get an idea of when he could do this and have a look at our home's setup. We figured he'd know enough about these to know what features were needed. I didn't get all those those little differences. He had a look at our setup to see what would be needed. He ordered a 40 gallon Bradford White Eco Defender water heater with a direct vent and a Honeywell V2 gas control unit. I haven't seen one quite like this before since there's no pilot door. It looks like everything is done through the gas control unit, including a built-in (manual) piezoelectric igniter like the ones in kitchen lighters or some of my camping stoves. At this point I have no idea how good this water heater is, but the plumber said that Bradford White is very good.
The plumber spent over a day doing it. Of course a new gas connector as well as new copper tubing for the bypass (I could smell the solder upstairs as he was using a blowtorch. Also - he installed an aluminum water heater pan under it. The job seemed to be done competently.
The only issue I have now is that the building office isn't open for permits. I guess this could be classified as an emergency where we can get the permit after the fact once they're open again. As far as I can tell the big thing is that they need to be able to inspect the work.
Last year it started getting worse. I'd re-light the pilot, but it finally gave out to the point where it wouldn't re-light. So we looked into what to get once we could afford a replacement. I just shut off the water to it and kind of lived without running hot water, although now it's kind of hard to take a shower at the gym since it's closed.
So we had a plumber come in for another issue and we asked about installing a water heater. My wife heard from a friend who recommended Bradford White, which only sells to contractors. Earlier we were thinking of maybe buying a water heater at Home Depot or Lowe's, getting it delivered, and having a plumber come in to install it and then take away the old heater. When asked he said he could order a Bradford White.
Later we contacted him again to get an idea of when he could do this and have a look at our home's setup. We figured he'd know enough about these to know what features were needed. I didn't get all those those little differences. He had a look at our setup to see what would be needed. He ordered a 40 gallon Bradford White Eco Defender water heater with a direct vent and a Honeywell V2 gas control unit. I haven't seen one quite like this before since there's no pilot door. It looks like everything is done through the gas control unit, including a built-in (manual) piezoelectric igniter like the ones in kitchen lighters or some of my camping stoves. At this point I have no idea how good this water heater is, but the plumber said that Bradford White is very good.
The plumber spent over a day doing it. Of course a new gas connector as well as new copper tubing for the bypass (I could smell the solder upstairs as he was using a blowtorch. Also - he installed an aluminum water heater pan under it. The job seemed to be done competently.
The only issue I have now is that the building office isn't open for permits. I guess this could be classified as an emergency where we can get the permit after the fact once they're open again. As far as I can tell the big thing is that they need to be able to inspect the work.
I ran into one like this from my brother's house a few years ago. They are all pretty well sealed up now but it worked OK. Kind of hard to see when the pilot was lit though. First thing you should do is have the plumber take the original drain valve out and put in a full flow ball valve.
Originally Posted by SHOZ
I ran into one like this from my brother's house a few years ago. They are all pretty well sealed up now but it worked OK. Kind of hard to see when the pilot was lit though. First thing you should do is have the plumber take the original drain valve out and put in a full flow ball valve.
This has a status light that blinks green every few second if the pilot is lit. I guess if the pilot goes out it will eventually cool down and the status stops blinking. However, this is a lot more sophisticated than what I'm guessing was a purely mechanical setup of the heater that was replaced.
I found a photo of the gas control.
![[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JC0MyT2VL._AC_.jpg "[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]")
It looks like pretty much everything was replaced. I was wondering where my money was going, but then the materials including tubing, the pan, solder, a new flex connector, etc. It does seem a little bit weird because I remember in the 80s when using an insulating water heater blanket was the big new thing.
I ran into one like this from my brother's house a few years ago. They are all pretty well sealed up now but it worked OK. Kind of hard to see when the pilot was lit though. First thing you should do is have the plumber take the original drain valve out and put in a full flow ball valve.
This has a status light that blinks green every few second if the pilot is lit. I guess if the pilot goes out it will eventually cool down and the status stops blinking. However, this is a lot more sophisticated than what I'm guessing was a purely mechanical setup of the heater that was replaced.
I found a photo of the gas control.
It looks like pretty much everything was replaced. I was wondering where my money was going, but then the materials including tubing, the pan, solder, a new flex connector, etc. It does seem a little bit weird because I remember in the 80s when using an insulating water heater blanket was the big new thing.
Originally Posted by SHOZ
So that thing have batteries or needs power? Hopefully not another wallwart transformer....
I didn't see any connection to AC or DC power and there's no battery hatch. I was kind of wondering where the power was coming from to power the thing.
I looked it up. I found video showing a slightly different Honeywell gas control unit, and they say the power is generated by the thermocouple (a thermopile actually).
A Honeywell Q313 thermopile is supposed to generate 750 mV, which is enough to power the simple electronics. It sounds like the electronics are off until the pilot is lit and heating the thermopile. Apparently a thermopile is just multiple thermocouples in series, where a standard one will put out 30 mV. I guess it's more sensitive and able to put out enough voltage to power the control electronics. I real life I'm actually an electrical engineer, but I'm really a 1s and 0s kind of guy. This stuff is totally foreign to me, although I can sort of understand the language. I'm guessing I could probably figure out a data sheet for the control chip.
So that thing have batteries or needs power? Hopefully not another wallwart transformer....
I didn't see any connection to AC or DC power and there's no battery hatch. I was kind of wondering where the power was coming from to power the thing.
I looked it up. I found video showing a slightly different Honeywell gas control unit, and they say the power is generated by the thermocouple (a thermopile actually).
A Honeywell Q313 thermopile is supposed to generate 750 mV, which is enough to power the simple electronics. It sounds like the electronics are off until the pilot is lit and heating the thermopile. Apparently a thermopile is just multiple thermocouples in series, where a standard one will put out 30 mV. I guess it's more sensitive and able to put out enough voltage to power the control electronics. I real life I'm actually an electrical engineer, but I'm really a 1s and 0s kind of guy. This stuff is totally foreign to me, although I can sort of understand the language. I'm guessing I could probably figure out a data sheet for the control chip.
Replace it!!!!
I lived in an apartment once where the hot water heater sprung a leak. It had flooded half of the tiny apartment within a very short period of time. You don't want that in your house.
I lived in an apartment once where the hot water heater sprung a leak. It had flooded half of the tiny apartment within a very short period of time. You don't want that in your house.
Originally Posted by SHOZ
I would not use copper on hot water unless I had to because of code. Too much of a heat sink.
My house is 100% copper on the incoming lines throughout the house. I haven't really noticed any issues with it.
I would not use copper on hot water unless I had to because of code. Too much of a heat sink.
My house is 100% copper on the incoming lines throughout the house. I haven't really noticed any issues with it.
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