Which is better for a daily driver? I've always had flooded cell batteries for vehicles. Are AGM worth the premium price?
AGM vs Flooded cell battery
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In a ATV or motorcycle yes in a car battery no.
You would have to get 10-15 years out of a AGM battery to make it money smart.
AGMs do out last flooded cells in ATVs and Motorcycles only because they don't have the charging system cars do.
It's just not worth the money.
You would have to get 10-15 years out of a AGM battery to make it money smart.
AGMs do out last flooded cells in ATVs and Motorcycles only because they don't have the charging system cars do.
It's just not worth the money.
In my Duramax my AC Delco batteries lasted 10 years they didn't die I just replaced them winter was coming.
JHZR2
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You're in FL. Its a daily driver.
Heat degrades batteries. Can't avoid that where you are. Being less than 100% charged degrades batteries. Assuming you don't do just ultra short tripping, you're hopefully good there.
AGM has longer cycle life and less self discharge. Since your car is a daily driver, self discharge isn't a big deal. Ultimate power isn't as huge a deal,either because it doesn't get super cold.
Other than very specific circumstances, I'd stick with a flooded battery personally.
Heat degrades batteries. Can't avoid that where you are. Being less than 100% charged degrades batteries. Assuming you don't do just ultra short tripping, you're hopefully good there.
AGM has longer cycle life and less self discharge. Since your car is a daily driver, self discharge isn't a big deal. Ultimate power isn't as huge a deal,either because it doesn't get super cold.
Other than very specific circumstances, I'd stick with a flooded battery personally.
I don't think they are, With all the Optima failures I've seen over the years!
At my shop we have to carry AGM batteries because most builds get the battery relocated to the trunk....We used to be a Optima dealer....We now carry XS Power AGM batteries & they are really good but NOT available in every group size & they're quite expensive.
They only other AGM battery I have a lot of experience with is Odyssey, Hit & Miss but better than Optima!!!
I started buying Lead acid Continental batteries a few years back for my personal vehicles & have had great luck with them.
At my shop we have to carry AGM batteries because most builds get the battery relocated to the trunk....We used to be a Optima dealer....We now carry XS Power AGM batteries & they are really good but NOT available in every group size & they're quite expensive.
They only other AGM battery I have a lot of experience with is Odyssey, Hit & Miss but better than Optima!!!
I started buying Lead acid Continental batteries a few years back for my personal vehicles & have had great luck with them.
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
In my Duramax my AC Delco batteries lasted 10 years they didn't die I just replaced them winter was coming.
Delco batteries used to be pretty good, I got about 7 years out of the originals in my '06 Duramax. The Last Delco I bought didn't last 2 years.
In my Duramax my AC Delco batteries lasted 10 years they didn't die I just replaced them winter was coming.
Delco batteries used to be pretty good, I got about 7 years out of the originals in my '06 Duramax. The Last Delco I bought didn't last 2 years.
I generally get 8+ yrs out of an agm.in my jeep. I am lucky to get 3 yrs out of a flooded battery in it.
I got almost 8 years out of my factory Dodge battery and I am in 4 years on my current battery ( a Walmart Everstart). I just don't see the value in a AGM. Cost three times as much and "If" it lasts twice as long you still aren't ahead.
There's a couple things to consider.
First off, what's inside the vehicle from the factory and why?
-some vehicles come with agm batteries from the manufacturer for better charge/discharge characteristics, extreme vibration resistance or non-spillable design. There are vehicles that the PCM's voltage regulator/charge controller are programmed around the specs and abilities of an AGM battery. Replacing with a flooded battery requires having the computer reprogrammed (at least according to dealers/guides)
-sometimes manufacturers do a bad job of picking a battery or designing a charging system. Look at certain YMs of ford fusions that chew through batteries in 3-4 years. A lot of modern vehicles are burning through their factory batteries faster than ever. I've been selling a lot of batteries for 2013-2014 vehicles this year. Other times in powersport applications, smaller batteries were used where space couldn't be made. There's nothing you can really do to get a significantly longer lifespan out of batteries in these situations. Also, there's quite a few powersport flooded batteries with no glass mat equivalent.
- you just can't extrapolate your experience from one vehicle and battery to another. Getting 8 years out of a battery on a mid 00s pickup is easy because there's comparatively low parasitic drain and a big honking alternator compared to more modern vehicles along with batteries rated at at least 50% higher cranking amps than what they actually need (diesels not necessarily included).
Next, how is the vehicle used?
- AGM batteries have a number of advantages over flooded batteries, but that doesn't necessarily meen they provide any benefit to you (at least not for the 50%+ price increase) for a daily driver.
- vehicles that sit for long periods of time, as well as vehicles that only make short trips will benefit from AGM batteries faster charging and resistance to acid stratification, as well as better deep cycling capabilities. Of course this is only to a point, they're not infallible.
- Vehicles with heavy electric drains such as winches and wheelchair lifts can benefit from faster charging and better cycling ability.
- vehicles in severe service situations such as heavy shock or vibrations, rolled vehicle/extreme angles, extreme heat or cold can see better battery lifespan out of an AGMcas well.
Holy [censored], its 4AM
in a nutshell, are AGMs better? Yes. Do you need better, or will it net you more service life for your dollar than a flood battery? Who knows. Pure Lead AGMs like oddysey and northstar tend to be the best available, with any of the standard lead calcium batteries being second.
Otherwise, for a daily driver, figure out what the average lifespan is of a standard replacement, and then decide if you will need longer service life or more reliability and if you need to spend more to get it.
Also, do you plan on keeping the vehicle or being alive for that long? People get sick of cars - they also get sick and die.
First off, what's inside the vehicle from the factory and why?
-some vehicles come with agm batteries from the manufacturer for better charge/discharge characteristics, extreme vibration resistance or non-spillable design. There are vehicles that the PCM's voltage regulator/charge controller are programmed around the specs and abilities of an AGM battery. Replacing with a flooded battery requires having the computer reprogrammed (at least according to dealers/guides)
-sometimes manufacturers do a bad job of picking a battery or designing a charging system. Look at certain YMs of ford fusions that chew through batteries in 3-4 years. A lot of modern vehicles are burning through their factory batteries faster than ever. I've been selling a lot of batteries for 2013-2014 vehicles this year. Other times in powersport applications, smaller batteries were used where space couldn't be made. There's nothing you can really do to get a significantly longer lifespan out of batteries in these situations. Also, there's quite a few powersport flooded batteries with no glass mat equivalent.
- you just can't extrapolate your experience from one vehicle and battery to another. Getting 8 years out of a battery on a mid 00s pickup is easy because there's comparatively low parasitic drain and a big honking alternator compared to more modern vehicles along with batteries rated at at least 50% higher cranking amps than what they actually need (diesels not necessarily included).
Next, how is the vehicle used?
- AGM batteries have a number of advantages over flooded batteries, but that doesn't necessarily meen they provide any benefit to you (at least not for the 50%+ price increase) for a daily driver.
- vehicles that sit for long periods of time, as well as vehicles that only make short trips will benefit from AGM batteries faster charging and resistance to acid stratification, as well as better deep cycling capabilities. Of course this is only to a point, they're not infallible.
- Vehicles with heavy electric drains such as winches and wheelchair lifts can benefit from faster charging and better cycling ability.
- vehicles in severe service situations such as heavy shock or vibrations, rolled vehicle/extreme angles, extreme heat or cold can see better battery lifespan out of an AGMcas well.
Holy [censored], its 4AM
in a nutshell, are AGMs better? Yes. Do you need better, or will it net you more service life for your dollar than a flood battery? Who knows. Pure Lead AGMs like oddysey and northstar tend to be the best available, with any of the standard lead calcium batteries being second.
Otherwise, for a daily driver, figure out what the average lifespan is of a standard replacement, and then decide if you will need longer service life or more reliability and if you need to spend more to get it.
Also, do you plan on keeping the vehicle or being alive for that long? People get sick of cars - they also get sick and die.
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The ROI just isn't there, outside of really extreme and infrequent circumstances.
99 out of 100 motorists studied would be better served with flooded cells.
99 out of 100 motorists studied would be better served with flooded cells.
I have found that AGM batteries seem to work really well for vehicles with lots of electronics. Now that there are store brand AGM batteries out there, costs have come down. My local farm store sells Duration brand AGM batteries for the same price as their best regular battery. I installed a Duration in my old 2010 Grand Caravan and in my 2014 Honda Odyssey and the results have been fantastic. Cold doesn't seem to phase it, the cars always fired right up in the cold. With the regular battery, both cars would crank slow in the winter, not the case with the AGM in my experiences. To me, the AGM is the only way to go now when I need batteries with the cost being much more competitive.
To HorseThief, Olas, carguy996: GREAT, CLEAR, INFORMATIVE POSTS. Thank you.
Question 1: Are there not electronics built into AGM batteries?
Do these electronics share the "infant mortality / long life" stats of other electronics?
Question 2: Is it at all realistic to fear that battery companies will make lead/acid batteries more cheaply in order to boost AGM battery sales?
Question 1: Are there not electronics built into AGM batteries?
Do these electronics share the "infant mortality / long life" stats of other electronics?
Question 2: Is it at all realistic to fear that battery companies will make lead/acid batteries more cheaply in order to boost AGM battery sales?
1. To the above - there are no electronics built into AGM batteries.
2. anything we say here will be conjecture. it's more likely they will get their AGM manufacturing solid and then start cost-cutting.
I've started moving to AGM, and I always shoot for a physically larger battery than oem. Just this weekend the type 51R in the crv quit. The best flooded battery was $150. I picked up a group 35 AGM for $180. Both had the same 3 year warranty. The last two Advanced Auto golds I've bought failed just outside of 3 years, and the warranty was only 3 years. My first AGM is approaching 3 years in the Tundra and spins the engine over very quickly. As long as the AGM construction remains un-cheapened, I'm optimistic about using them. Amongst my family, we have 4 in service now. $30 between top flooded and AGM was not a big deal to me. The total cost was, though.
On the flip side, a recent deep cycle set me back all of $90. I think with batteries, the way to go is probably the cheapest, or the highest.
I will note that all of the recent floodeds I've had fail early, I believe to have been made by JCI. I used to be a fan of JCI but not so much now. If I could easily source Deka or east penn I'd gladly give them a shot. I'm also a fan of odyssey (had them in a camper a long time ago) and the no-frills battery was simply well made and lasted a long time. In my area, however, they're hard to find.
I've never been a real fan of Interstate, but now JCI seems to be declining to about the same.
2. anything we say here will be conjecture. it's more likely they will get their AGM manufacturing solid and then start cost-cutting.
I've started moving to AGM, and I always shoot for a physically larger battery than oem. Just this weekend the type 51R in the crv quit. The best flooded battery was $150. I picked up a group 35 AGM for $180. Both had the same 3 year warranty. The last two Advanced Auto golds I've bought failed just outside of 3 years, and the warranty was only 3 years. My first AGM is approaching 3 years in the Tundra and spins the engine over very quickly. As long as the AGM construction remains un-cheapened, I'm optimistic about using them. Amongst my family, we have 4 in service now. $30 between top flooded and AGM was not a big deal to me. The total cost was, though.
On the flip side, a recent deep cycle set me back all of $90. I think with batteries, the way to go is probably the cheapest, or the highest.
I will note that all of the recent floodeds I've had fail early, I believe to have been made by JCI. I used to be a fan of JCI but not so much now. If I could easily source Deka or east penn I'd gladly give them a shot. I'm also a fan of odyssey (had them in a camper a long time ago) and the no-frills battery was simply well made and lasted a long time. In my area, however, they're hard to find.
I've never been a real fan of Interstate, but now JCI seems to be declining to about the same.
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Personal experience:
The Koleos in my sig is fitted with an AGM battery from factory.
The electrical management seems to be tailored to use the abilities of AGM to the max:
There’s a smart charging logic: maximizing load on alternator when decelerating or braking, minimizing recharge if not needed (80% state of charge?) when moving at low speed (city driving)...
Also, starter motor seems to be different.
Models with manual transmission may have start&stop technology on some model years.
Lifetime of the oem varta battery here (summer all year): 3 years max, considering 180 days per year doing door to door driving, approximately 60 starts per day.
The Koleos in my sig is fitted with an AGM battery from factory.
The electrical management seems to be tailored to use the abilities of AGM to the max:
There’s a smart charging logic: maximizing load on alternator when decelerating or braking, minimizing recharge if not needed (80% state of charge?) when moving at low speed (city driving)...
Also, starter motor seems to be different.
Models with manual transmission may have start&stop technology on some model years.
Lifetime of the oem varta battery here (summer all year): 3 years max, considering 180 days per year doing door to door driving, approximately 60 starts per day.
Say there are 2 equal capacity batteries, one flooded starting and one AGM, drained to sub 30% charged level, and they are asked to start the engine on a cold morning.
It is likely the AGM battery will still easily start the engine, the flooded battery is less likely to do so. how much less? Too many variables to even guess with any confidence.
It is unwise to classify all brands of AGM into the same category. The Deka intimidator cannot be compared to the Odyssey/Northstar thin plate pure lead which have ~30% more cold cranking amps, and if deep cycled and recharged properly( fully) will outcycle the Deka intimidator by a factor of 3. If treated poorly ( chronically undercharged) they will last about the same.
I deep cycle my Northstar group 27 starter battery, and manually control the recharging voltages it sees, and am getting excellent service from it, but I recharge it fully most each and every discharge, and I determine full by an Ammeter, not some green light on a plug charger.
Keep em cool if possible, keep em fully charged, and one should get good to excellent longevity from almost any lead acid battery. Pretending the sticker on the casing, has much to do with longevity when those two main variables, average temperature and state of charge, are not accounted for, is unwise in the extreme.
It is likely the AGM battery will still easily start the engine, the flooded battery is less likely to do so. how much less? Too many variables to even guess with any confidence.
It is unwise to classify all brands of AGM into the same category. The Deka intimidator cannot be compared to the Odyssey/Northstar thin plate pure lead which have ~30% more cold cranking amps, and if deep cycled and recharged properly( fully) will outcycle the Deka intimidator by a factor of 3. If treated poorly ( chronically undercharged) they will last about the same.
I deep cycle my Northstar group 27 starter battery, and manually control the recharging voltages it sees, and am getting excellent service from it, but I recharge it fully most each and every discharge, and I determine full by an Ammeter, not some green light on a plug charger.
Keep em cool if possible, keep em fully charged, and one should get good to excellent longevity from almost any lead acid battery. Pretending the sticker on the casing, has much to do with longevity when those two main variables, average temperature and state of charge, are not accounted for, is unwise in the extreme.
I feel this way - if the car didn't come with an AGM, there is some benefit but you'll spend more. Most charging systems are designed around flooded batteries. All batteries lose electrolyte, but you can't replenish it in a sealed battery. Some cars do throw more current at the battery and cause any battery to spray electrolyte or boil it off. I'm sure with the new alternator decoupling mechanisms and PCM-controlled charging, an AGM battery might hold up better - but not all cars do have batteries under the passenger seat, engine bay enclosure - not just a mere heat shield or in the trunk like a BMW or Mercedes. There's reason why batteries in those tend to hold up better - isolated from heat and controlled charging.
Now that start-stop(a waste IMO) is becoming more commonplace on "mainstream"(GM, FCA, Ford, Honda) cars instead of a tactic used by the Germans and British to pad their CAFE scores, AGM batteries are becoming en vogue. Don't be surprised if JCI cheaps out on them to meet OEM contract pricing and parts store margins.
Now that start-stop(a waste IMO) is becoming more commonplace on "mainstream"(GM, FCA, Ford, Honda) cars instead of a tactic used by the Germans and British to pad their CAFE scores, AGM batteries are becoming en vogue. Don't be surprised if JCI cheaps out on them to meet OEM contract pricing and parts store margins.
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
In a ATV or motorcycle yes in a car battery no.
You would have to get 10-15 years out of a AGM battery to make it money smart...
I agree with this mainly because you can get cheap generic AGM's for a motorcycle and that's what I have in mine. The self discharge rate of an AGM is so incredibly low it's ideal for any vehicle not used every day.
I wouldn't pay a huge premium for an AGM in car as the economics just don't stack up.
In a ATV or motorcycle yes in a car battery no.
You would have to get 10-15 years out of a AGM battery to make it money smart...
I agree with this mainly because you can get cheap generic AGM's for a motorcycle and that's what I have in mine. The self discharge rate of an AGM is so incredibly low it's ideal for any vehicle not used every day.
I wouldn't pay a huge premium for an AGM in car as the economics just don't stack up.
Thanks guys, this post has helped me understand the difference between the two types of batteries a bit more as I can relate this to my two vehicles, that is if the gauges in my two vehicles are fairly accurate, see sig.
I have an AGM in my truck from AAP that is about two years old and an Interstate in my car that's at least six years old, it was in it when I bought it so I have no idea it's actual age. Since I am the only driver of these vehicles I try and drive them equally and cycle them every couple days. I noticed in my car the volt meter runs above 14 for a while when first started before it settles down to below 14 to where my truck is below 14 all the time and never goes above 14.
So this fits right in with what was said here, the flooded battery in the car is losing some charge over those couple days to where the AGM in not.
I have an AGM in my truck from AAP that is about two years old and an Interstate in my car that's at least six years old, it was in it when I bought it so I have no idea it's actual age. Since I am the only driver of these vehicles I try and drive them equally and cycle them every couple days. I noticed in my car the volt meter runs above 14 for a while when first started before it settles down to below 14 to where my truck is below 14 all the time and never goes above 14.
So this fits right in with what was said here, the flooded battery in the car is losing some charge over those couple days to where the AGM in not.
This thread has done two things for me. First, for my use an AGM does not make s nse.
Second... I need to grab a jug of distilled water and check electrolyte levels
Second... I need to grab a jug of distilled water and check electrolyte levels
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