Fresh Motor, What Oil?

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I'm new to the forums, so I hope I followed the rules.

I have a 93 Toyota MR2 Turbo.

I need advice on break in oil, how long to run it, and what oil to switch to once that is done. Filter advice would be awesome as well!



Motor is currently on a stand and being put together by myself...

Engine builder and machine shop installed Wiseco pistons, Eagle rods, King bearings all into a 5sfe block out of a 98 Camry. I'm using a 3sgte cylinder head. Cylinder head has BC racing 264 cams, 1zz shimless buckets, and ATS valve springs. Rev limit will be increased a solid 1,000rpm for a redline of about 8,500. It's using a 5sfe oil cooler, and oil pump; oil filter relocation (-10AN lines) is being put together as we speak to clear the exhaust. The block is capable of holding about 700whp(rods being the limitation), turbo (BorgWarner S252 journal bearing) and fuel system are only good for about 450hp which is were I plan on keeping it. Oh, and it will be running on corn.




The car is going to be street driven, some drag racing, little to no road racing or autox. Solid even mix of highway and city miles. Probably less than 5000 miles a year. Trap speed will be an estimated 120-130 mph, so it will see some speed at the strip.

I know the factory oil was Eneos 5w30 - here are the specs on it, but I doubt that matters now.
ENEOS-Engine-Oil-Specifications-6-15.png


I'm a pretty big T6 fan, which I use in my truck and my GLHS, but I didn't think it would be a fitting application for the fresh motor.

So what is the best break in oil to use?
How long do run the break in oil?
What oil do switch to once that is done?
 
Originally Posted By: Bgallagher
ask the engine builder for their recommendation.
That would be too easy because why trust a guy that builds engines and sees what does and doesn't work. Heck lets ask People who don't know the difference between a clearance and the tolerances.
 
There are many, many opinions on oils and break-in oils. If your engine has solid or sliding lifters then conventional wisdom is to use a higher ZDDP oil for break-in and thereafter. But according to one guys testing, he says this is bogus. It's more about the oil's film strength. If you have time to read some and read fairly fast, then check out his longstanding blog here. If you want to see his ratings based on his test results, then scroll down the very long page to the numbered ratings. He tends to update some oils as formulations change.

The reality is that there are now additives in some oils that are more effective and better overall than ZDDP ever was. There are high quality oils such as the German-made Fuchs GT-1 that contain no ZDDP yet have excellent wear control. There are a few high quality aftermarket oil additives that safely boost the anti-wear and anti-friction of almost any standalone forumlation, without reducing the overall effectiveness of the rest of the oil's additive package.
 
Builders usually provide a break-in procedure when they release a rebuilt engine. Since you're doing it yourself, you're reaching out for advice.

My built engine came with instructions for a 20 min oil change followed by a 100 km oil change and then a 1000 km oil change. They say used conventional oil for the initial 2 oil changes and after that move to a synthetic oil for the standard oil change interval. I heard conventional is better for ring seating and it's cheaper as well.

Here's a link example:

MAP's proper engine break-in procedure

After that my engine assembler suggested xW-40 oil because of the forged pistons.
 
I am going this weekend to the Charlotte NC Dirt Track to check out a new product that has dramatically improved the durability of many race engines for break-in and during the whole season, along with multiplying the typical oil life of the race engines by many times. The guys that have been using this additive for the last several years are all using/testing in their tow vehicles and personal vehicles as well with great results. That's all I can say for now. I have yet to try the product.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Bgallagher
ask the engine builder for their recommendation.
That would be too easy because why trust a guy that builds engines and sees what does and doesn't work. Heck lets ask People who don't know the difference between a clearance and the tolerances.


God forbid you want a second opinion, right? /s

Engine builder has yet to get back with me after a couple days, so I went the collective route. Motor is far from done, so it's not like I'm starting it tomorrow.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Heck lets ask People who don't know the difference between a clearance and the tolerances.


Who are you talking about? Perhaps there are some people here who have built engines. I agree with asking the builder, but no reason to bite the hand of someone asking a question.

OP, I would want a high zinc oil, and i would want to know what the main and rod bearing clearances are.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: LaszloToth
Builders usually provide a break-in procedure when they release a rebuilt engine. Since you're doing it yourself, you're reaching out for advice.

My built engine came with instructions for a 20 min oil change followed by a 100 km oil change and then a 1000 km oil change. They say used conventional oil for the initial 2 oil changes and after that move to a synthetic oil for the standard oil change interval. I heard conventional is better for ring seating and it's cheaper as well.

Here's a link example:

MAP's proper engine break-in procedure

After that my engine assembler suggested xW-40 oil because of the forged pistons.


This ^

My personal regimen differs slightly from the above, but it's close enough. Use either, or one similar.

First change after it's been properly run up on the stand. 20 minutes? Close enough.
Second change after 50 engine hours / 500 mi / 750 kM. Switch to synthetic at this point.

With your motor, xxW-40 or xxW-50.

Because lots of top end race parts and turbo, plus your indicated desire to run to 8500 (which is a lot of stress on the rods. Do your math for piston speed and buy a pill for that RPM for fuel cut / rev limiter). REMEMBER: if you do something stupid with a manual transmission and a downshift, the rev limiter won't help you; it will spin to 10,000 rpm with no fuel and a bad downshift, and the rods will suffer that day.

Next change at 2,000 mi / 3000 kM.

Determine OCI with the help of the 2k/3k Blackstone report, but if you are going to see track duty, you probably are going to be changing often by street car standards.

Good luck.
 
Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
There are many, many opinions on oils and break-in oils. If your engine has solid or sliding lifters then conventional wisdom is to use a higher ZDDP oil for break-in and thereafter. But according to one guys testing, he says this is bogus. It's more about the oil's film strength. If you have time to read some and read fairly fast, then check out his longstanding blog here. If you want to see his ratings based on his test results, then scroll down the very long page to the numbered ratings. He tends to update some oils as formulations change.

The reality is that there are now additives in some oils that are more effective and better overall than ZDDP ever was. There are high quality oils such as the German-made Fuchs GT-1 that contain no ZDDP yet have excellent wear control. There are a few high quality aftermarket oil additives that safely boost the anti-wear and anti-friction of almost any standalone forumlation, without reducing the overall effectiveness of the rest of the oil's additive package.


He's using a cam with "shimless buckets" (which I've never heard of, but perhaps he means 'shim under bucket'; in any case directly acting on the valves; no lifters involved).
 
8,500 RPMs is 1,000 more than stock?

My Camry has the same engine and doesn’t rev over 5,600 RPMs
 
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: CT8
Heck lets ask People who don't know the difference between a clearance and the tolerances.


Who are you talking about? Perhaps there are some people here who have built engines. I agree with asking the builder, but no reason to bite the hand of someone asking a question.

OP, I would want a high zinc oil, and i would want to know what the main and rod bearing clearances are.


Sadly, I don't know them. Engine builder might remember, but I highly doubt it. He's a busy guy, so I'll ask, but I doubt I'll get a response any time soon. There where some numbers sharpied on all the piston tops (3.441) but I'm not even going to lie and say I know what that means.

Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
He's using a cam with "shimless buckets" (which I've never heard of, but perhaps he means 'shim under bucket'; in any case directly acting on the valves; no lifters involved).


No they are shimless. Solid individual buckets. Each one is a set size, not shim under bucket. Look at the 1zzfe engine for more details.


Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
Originally Posted By: LaszloToth
Builders usually provide a break-in procedure when they release a rebuilt engine. Since you're doing it yourself, you're reaching out for advice.

My built engine came with instructions for a 20 min oil change followed by a 100 km oil change and then a 1000 km oil change. They say used conventional oil for the initial 2 oil changes and after that move to a synthetic oil for the standard oil change interval. I heard conventional is better for ring seating and it's cheaper as well.

Here's a link example:

MAP's proper engine break-in procedure

After that my engine assembler suggested xW-40 oil because of the forged pistons.


This ^

My personal regimen differs slightly from the above, but it's close enough. Use either, or one similar.

First change after it's been properly run up on the stand. 20 minutes? Close enough.
Second change after 50 engine hours / 500 mi / 750 kM. Switch to synthetic at this point.

With your motor, xxW-40 or xxW-50.

Because lots of top end race parts and turbo, plus your indicated desire to run to 8500 (which is a lot of stress on the rods. Do your math for piston speed and buy a pill for that RPM for fuel cut / rev limiter). REMEMBER: if you do something stupid with a manual transmission and a downshift, the rev limiter won't help you; it will spin to 10,000 rpm with no fuel and a bad downshift, and the rods will suffer that day.

Next change at 2,000 mi / 3000 kM.

Determine OCI with the help of the 2k/3k Blackstone report, but if you are going to see track duty, you probably are going to be changing often by street car standards.

Good luck.


Thanks for the detail. It is running MSPNP, so rev limit I believe is handled. It uses both spark and fuel cut set for both Rev limit and launch control. Launch control is currently off of a clutch switch, which may be changing in the future. I'm a granny shifter, and not competitive, so hopefully the only miss shifts will be trying to get it in reverse lol. Thanks for the mileage suggestions.

Can't say I know what the piston speed would be, but I'll look into it.



Originally Posted By: Nick1994
8,500 RPMs is 1,000 more than stock?

My Camry has the same engine and doesn’t rev over 5,600 RPMs


The 5SFE rev's really low because it is single cam. The 3SGTE head I'm using is dual cam with a rev limit of about 7,000 RPM. Considering the cam profile, I should be able to squeeze a little more useable power band out of it, but the last 500 rpm will probably only be for track duty depending on wheel size and gearing of the run so I don't have an extra shift. I highly doubt it will make any extra power past 8Krpm, but some shimless bucket motors rev to 9Krpm, so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Side note, incase you didn't know, the 96-98 5SFE blocks and cranks out of Camry's are extremely strong. 1000+hp strong. Sadly, I've already cracked one 3SGTE block, thus the Frankenstein motor.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Bgallagher
ask the engine builder for their recommendation.
That would be too easy because why trust a guy that builds engines and sees what does and doesn't work. Heck lets ask People who don't know the difference between a clearance and the tolerances.


Now, now ...
laugh.gif
The OP is the engine builder
smile.gif


The King bearings tell me that you want some dino in there. I've run a fair number of King bearings (I like them). They always look better to me on tear-down with straight dino oil with a modestly high HTHS. So I'd say Brad Penn - Penn One 10W-30 for break-in and for running. Or VR-1 Silver bottle.

That kind RPM and I'd be looking at foaming issues. Rotell T6 is not known for the best foam control. It was formulated for diesels, very few of which turn over 3,000. You are not in that crowd ...

After break-in, if you want to switch to synthetic, I'd go Motul 300V and change it after UOA's and the lab says it's time. Could go annual changes. But on high pressure corn, I doubt it... UOA's are the only way to know...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Bgallagher
ask the engine builder for their recommendation.
That would be too easy because why trust a guy that builds engines and sees what does and doesn't work. Heck lets ask People who don't know the difference between a clearance and the tolerances.


Now, now ...
laugh.gif
The OP is the engine builder
smile.gif


The King bearings tell me that you want some dino in there. I've run a fair number of King bearings (I like them). They always look better to me on tear-down with straight dino oil with a modestly high HTHS. So I'd say Brad Penn - Penn One 10W-30 for break-in and for running. Or VR-1 Silver bottle.

That kind RPM and I'd be looking at foaming issues. Rotell T6 is not known for the best foam control. It was formulated for diesels, very few of which turn over 3,000. You are not in that crowd ...

After break-in, if you want to switch to synthetic, I'd go Motul 300V and change it after UOA's and the lab says it's time. Could go annual changes. But on high pressure corn, I doubt it... UOA's are the only way to know...


The advice on the T6 makes sense. I wasn't planning on running it in this motor anyways, but I didn't even think about foam.

Isn't Motul 300V a motorcycle oil?
 
Motul 300V is a race oil. But you are rapidly approaching race specs. Redline 5W-30 might be another choice. Again, neither has any Dino oil...

But really, Castrol 0W-40 and a few other Euro oils are nearly as durable, and have a nice HTHS. Problem is they are almost all real synthetics too.

I personally have had some decent service out of Maxlife 10W-40 syn blend (Red Bottle). But that's pretty low shelf for this motor. I'm used to bigger bearings and journals. I prolly would not try it on this motor ...

My own break-in and running oil for most engine builds now days is Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty). But that's just because I can't buy VR-1 in Cali
frown.gif


It's another diesel oil, so does not have the absolute best foam control. It's good, but not like premium Bike oils that are expected to live in 12K motors with high specific out puts ... The downside of bike oils is that we have no testing and few VOA's ... I used to be a fan of Golden Spectro, but BIL ate a BSA engine on that. So no more ...

I know guys who run Brad Penn in the roundy-round cars and they wring those engines pretty hard. No bad foam issues, so I can recommend that one. Ditto VR-1. Both of those oils seem to hold up well to turbos on LS's and such. After that, it's group think to try to figure out what will work best. Your first UOA will tell a lot. We just don't want any bad news ...

NASCAR is not your friend here. They run dry sumps and huge oil tanks. So all the oil has a chance to settle before being pumped back in. Whole different scenario from wet sump systems. Your motor is more like a Hayabusa, than a normal street engine ...
 
I didn't mean anything by it. Usually the builders have specific regimes that they use for their engines as they know more about your engine that most people would. Things can be different from engine to engine. Odd that they have been radio silence.
 
Just got word from my engine builder. He suggests VR1 20w50 conventional.

Is there any reason not to run the VR1 20w50 synthetic?
 
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