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Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability #4552200
10/23/17 04:15 PM
10/23/17 04:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Cornershop Offline OP
Cornershop  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Hello all

I'm new here and looking for feedback on the Elf oil linked below. I'm looking to confirm suitability with a 1987 911 Carrera (aircooled) which is currently undergoing a complete engine rebuild including new crank, cams, rocker arms..

http://catalog.elf.com/gallery/ORIGINALS/visuels/3000/3196

https://www.nielsencdg.co.uk/acatalog/EL...872.html#SID=28

I will complete circa 3k miles of fast road use per year, unlikely to see any track action.

The elf customer service team confirmed Zddp levels are good at 1200-1250 ppm but unsure what other criteria I should base the decision on?

I'm UK based and have access to a number of European oils including Millers, Mobil, Motul etc however this elf oil is cheap (17/5litres), Porsche A40 rated, and has good levels of zddp.

Thanks in advance
Shirish

Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4552324
10/23/17 05:52 PM
10/23/17 05:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,425
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,425
PA
welcome to BITOG!

I'm sure this will be a decent oil as it meets some fairly tough specs (VW 505, MB 229.3). However, I might prefer 10W-40 viscosity (should be more shear-stable) and a higher flash point. There are also much tougher specs out there (e.g. VW 508/509, MB 229.5).

How did you arrive at this oil? Was it recommended to you for this application, or are you working with someone who focuses on a limited range of products?


2008 BMW M3
Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4552344
10/23/17 06:07 PM
10/23/17 06:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 204
Albury, NSW
JFAllen Offline
JFAllen  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 204
Albury, NSW
Air cooled engines place different demands on the motor oil, especially in the head where temps are higher.

If I had an air cooled Porsche I'd buy Porsche's OEM oil:

here

That way you know you're getting a product especially engineered for use case.

Regards
Jordan


Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4552524
10/23/17 10:42 PM
10/23/17 10:42 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 950
Frogland / Brittany / Canada
Popsy Offline
Popsy  Offline
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 950
Frogland / Brittany / Canada
I'm not sure about the ZDDP level, 1200-1250 seem high for this oil.

I always thought this Elf oil was just the Total Quartz 9000 rebranded, but maybe I'm wrong.

http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/5990-total-quartz-9000-5w-40-svezhee/

Have you considered Motul 4100 15W50? There's a VOA in the voa forum, looks pretty good. But it's a 50 grade, so probably not what you want.

Edit : According to VOA I've seen here, Porsche oils don't seem to have that much ZDDP

Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4552563
10/24/17 03:09 AM
10/24/17 03:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Cornershop Offline OP
Cornershop  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Thanks all

In my naivety I purely arrived at this oil based on A40 approval and ZDDP content - I have also used this on 2 oil changes on my 1989 Mercedes 560sec and the difference in valve train noise and general smoothness was stark compared to the PO/garage's preference of Castrol Magnatec 10w40 - the Elf oil wins hands down.

I've not considered a /50 as my reading for UK climates suggests it's overkill and potentially will create uneccessary drag, especially for a road car. Saying that, for the first 1000 miles and possibly the first 12m of warranty post rebuild I will use whatever the engine builder uses which is Valvoline VR1 20w50. My prior experience with 15w/50 Motul 300v and switching to Millers Nanodrive NT 5w40 introduced a pleasing zip to acceleration and slightly lower engine temps.

I may return to the Millers but wondering if the Elf oil will provide all I need for 30% of the cost. The build is costing north of 15k so don't want to use a 'lesser' oil for the sake of cost.

Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Popsy] #4552565
10/24/17 03:11 AM
10/24/17 03:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Cornershop Offline OP
Cornershop  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Originally Posted By: Popsy
I'm not sure about the ZDDP level, 1200-1250 seem high for this oil.

I always thought this Elf oil was just the Total Quartz 9000 rebranded, but maybe I'm wrong.

http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/5990-total-quartz-9000-5w-40-svezhee/

Have you considered Motul 4100 15W50? There's a VOA in the voa forum, looks pretty good. But it's a 50 grade, so probably not what you want.

Edit : According to VOA I've seen here, Porsche oils don't seem to have that much ZDDP

I'm thinking the Elf oil is the same as the Total Classic 5w40:

http://catalog.lubricants.total.com/gallery/ORIGINALS/visuels/3500/3687

Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: JFAllen] #4552656
10/24/17 06:25 AM
10/24/17 06:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,425
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,425
PA
Originally Posted By: JFAllen
Air cooled engines place different demands on the motor oil, especially in the head where temps are higher.

If I had an air cooled Porsche I'd buy Porsche's OEM oil:

here

That way you know you're getting a product especially engineered for use case.

Regards
Jordan


Good call IMO. thumbsup


2008 BMW M3
Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4552850
10/24/17 09:08 AM
10/24/17 09:08 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 950
Frogland / Brittany / Canada
Popsy Offline
Popsy  Offline
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 950
Frogland / Brittany / Canada
You still have the option of Motul 300V in 5W40 or 10W40. Considering the cost of the rebuilt, better safe than sorry.
Valvoline VR1 or the Porsche 20W50 oil, pretty close.

I've never seen this Total 5W40 "classic", but since it's API SL, it might effectively get around 1200ppm ZDDP.
(to me looks like an old formula rebranded)


96 Barchetta, 300V 5W40 | Forfour 95, SHU 0W40
Mazda 6 2.3, M1 0W40 | Colt Ralliart, 300V 0W40
Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Popsy] #4553050
10/24/17 12:08 PM
10/24/17 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 338
Cheshire, England
barryh Offline
barryh  Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 338
Cheshire, England
Originally Posted By: Popsy

(to me looks like an old formula rebranded)


Would that explain why it's an old ACEA spec 2007: A3/B4. Given that ACEA specs are self certified it must mean it doesn't meet the later versions of A3/B4. On a newer car that would bother me.


Barry

1979 BMW R45 (Triple QX 5W40)
2009 Mercedes C180K (Shell Helix Ultra 5W40)
Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Popsy] #4553767
10/25/17 03:18 AM
10/25/17 03:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Cornershop Offline OP
Cornershop  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Originally Posted By: Popsy
You still have the option of Motul 300V in 5W40 or 10W40. Considering the cost of the rebuilt, better safe than sorry.
Valvoline VR1 or the Porsche 20W50 oil, pretty close.

I've never seen this Total 5W40 "classic", but since it's API SL, it might effectively get around 1200ppm ZDDP.
(to me looks like an old formula rebranded)
which of the 2 Motul oils would you recommend ?

Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4553771
10/25/17 03:31 AM
10/25/17 03:31 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 950
Frogland / Brittany / Canada
Popsy Offline
Popsy  Offline
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 950
Frogland / Brittany / Canada
Any of them smile
The 10W40 being probably more shear resistant, and 10W more than good enough for UK climate.

If you want something a little bit thicker, Total Quartz 10W50 is also to be considered http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/22881-total-quartz-racing-10w-50-svezhee/


96 Barchetta, 300V 5W40 | Forfour 95, SHU 0W40
Mazda 6 2.3, M1 0W40 | Colt Ralliart, 300V 0W40
Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Popsy] #4553859
10/25/17 06:41 AM
10/25/17 06:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Cornershop Offline OP
Cornershop  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Originally Posted By: Popsy
Any of them smile
The 10W40 being probably more shear resistant, and 10W more than good enough for UK climate.

If you want something a little bit thicker, Total Quartz 10W50 is also to be considered http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/22881-total-quartz-racing-10w-50-svezhee/


Thank you - I actually have 10litres of the Total Quartz 10w/50 at home, its relatively cheap at the vendor in my first post at 25/5litres. I hesitated using it due to the slightly lower zddp than the Elf oil and my uncertainty re using a /50.

Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4553916
10/25/17 07:46 AM
10/25/17 07:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 73
Middle Florida
BufordTJustice Offline
BufordTJustice  Offline
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 73
Middle Florida
My concern for using a 5w-40 weight oil would be based upon the engine rebuilder's rec of 20w-50 oil. Possibly consider Mobil 1 15w-50, or a syn HDEO in 15w-40 weight (very difficult to find). As others have stated, localized hot spots within air cooled engines have a much higher temperature delta between the cooler spots than in the later water cooled engines.

Have you asked your engine builder why the 20w-50 rec? Is that mainly driven by track days or for summer "insurance" during hard driving in traffic?

For your air cooled, you need an HTHS of at least 4.0. So this means HDEO 5w-40 full syn oils (RT6, Delo, Delvac 1 [the exception, with an HTHS of 3.8 but a truly excellent oil], etc) or the like. Also, Mobil 1 15w-50 has an HTHS of 4.5.

https://www.mobil.com/English-US/Passenger-Vehicle-Lube/pds/NAUSMobil-1-15W50

Other than the HDEOs and the Motul 300v 10w-40, not many passenger car oils have an HTHS of 4.0 or higher. A40 oils usally fall in the 3.4-3.7 area when new....but tend to sheer quickly with use due to their 0w or 5w rating.

I'm using Delo 400 XLE 5w-40 in my 99 M96 3.4 down here in FL and it started in the Florida cold (58 degrees F) this morning without issue. It has an HTHS of 4.0-4.1 according to my research.

I think you would do well to focus heavily on HTHS figures as opposed to the std weight ratings.

EDIT: I've used Mobil-1 15w-50 in my Water cooled M96 with VarioCam down to about 65 degrees without issue. I'm sure running a proper 50 weight would be no issue for you. In fact, I'm leaning toward it. Also note that M1 15w-50 has 1200ppm ZDDP.

Last edited by BufordTJustice; 10/25/17 07:48 AM.

1999 Porsche 911 Cab 3.4 6-speed -> Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 ESP (CJ4) -> Fram Ultra XG3675

2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R -> M1 0w-40 FS -> Fram Ultra XG3593A
Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4555859
10/27/17 03:40 AM
10/27/17 03:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Cornershop Offline OP
Cornershop  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
UK
Thanks BTJ

Ill definitely be having a chat with the engine builder re his 20w50 recommendation.

It maybe because the pistons and cylinders are being retained (30k miles) and a /50 will offer better protection? My use-case to date does involve high traffic situations so I'm guessing fuel dilution also becomes a consideration.

Having covered very few miles in the past 2 years, it could well be using a /50 from now on becomes the norm; I can use the Elf 5w40 in the Merc.

Re: Elf evolution nf900 - aircooled suitability [Re: Cornershop] #4556054
10/27/17 08:22 AM
10/27/17 08:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,362
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,362
Slovenia EU
At 3k OCI you can use motocycle oils (less TBN in comparison with PCMOs) but stronger add pack...


2008 Toyota Yaris 1ND-TV 1.4 D4-D Elf FullTech FE 5w30
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
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