Are we taking a step backwards with D.I. Engines?

[Speak2Mountain]

I have an early iteration of the DI engine. Basically, Lexus/Toyota guinea pigged this engine on the buy public.

Consumer reports gives the engine not so Lexus like quality both major and minor.

I exp no carbon build up problems yet but have had a 2% fuel dilution per Blackstone and my nose. Not good

The engines, like diesels, get very dirty. So it seems incumbent to use a high detergent, low NOACK oil

These engines just don't seem built for stop and go slogging to destinations in cold weather. Mines is a manual and I rev it pretty high when changing gears, not great on MPG...but sure is fun

 

[itguy08]

We own 3 DI engines - no issues on any of them.

3.5 Ecoboost in a 2010 Taurus SHO - 119k and runs great. It was on of the first ones Ford put out there.
3.5 Ecoboost in a 2011 F150 - 82k and runs great. Tows like a dream if it sucks the fuel doing it.
2.0 Ecoboost in a 2016 Escape - I think she's at 28k now. Wife likes it and it's a peppy little plant but like all 4 bangers does love to rev.

I think the non German automakers have it figured out now. Early VW/Audi and BMW did have issues with valves but reports from the rest seem to have good service life.

Deposits are not cased by PCV - if they were the VW/Audi guys that put catch cans wouldn't have issues and yet they still do.

I'd buy another GDI in a heartbeat.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: andyd
If "Fearless Leader" has his way, EPA will be gutted. Obama's EPA mandate for a fleet average of 35 mpg maybe scrapped??? My '16 Camry LE gets 35+ Mpg in mixed driving. It is kinda like my brother's saying Accuracy greater than the demands of the job is a wasted effort"
Why not let the market decide, not the government bureaucrats?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: 5AcresAndAFool


The time frame that I was referencing was about 15 years ago that's back when I was a Auto Tech.

Even after they got the ultradrive straighten out it seemed like they still had issues. Now my parents have a fifteen-year-old caravan with a 4-speed automatic there is a 2.4 L 4-cylinder behind it and it never sees much weight and only has about 80,000 miles on it and that Transmissions been flawless.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
...
I think the non German automakers have it figured out now. Early VW/Audi and BMW did have issues with valves but reports from the rest seem to have good service life.

Deposits are not cased by PCV - if they were the VW/Audi guys that put catch cans wouldn't have issues and yet they still do.

I'd buy another GDI in a heartbeat.


They have figured it out and have changed the valve overlap and went a tad richer on the mixture to back it into the intake using the valve overlap and this is enough to keep the valves clean. (Similar to an Atkinson Cycle)

I originally thought it was PCV vapour washing across the valves and because there was no fuel to wash it away that it would get baked on but then when they said they could fix it with software I read more into the subject and realized what they were doing.

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Where are all these problems?

No fuel dilution in my car at all.


Is the "no fuel dilution" comment from Blackstone? That'd be my guess.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: andyd
If "Fearless Leader" has his way, EPA will be gutted. Obama's EPA mandate for a fleet average of 35 mpg maybe scrapped??? My '16 Camry LE gets 35+ Mpg in mixed driving. It is kinda like my brother's saying Accuracy greater than the demands of the job is a wasted effort"
Why not let the market decide, not the government bureaucrats?

Plus I think the Obama EPA mandate was for something more like 53+ mpg as a fleet average, not 35.

Whimsey

 

[EdwardC]

I'm not old enough to remember the transition from carbureted cars, but my guess is that if bitog was around then, there would be a similar post about the change to fuel injection. There will always be teething pains with new technology, and I agree that not all new technology is good, but DI was implemented for a reason and isn't likely going to go away, just get better.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Where are all these problems?

No fuel dilution in my car at all.


Is the "no fuel dilution" comment from Blackstone? That'd be my guess.


In all fairness to Blackstone they don't say "no dilution" in their reports. It falls under the .

Whimsey

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: EdwardC
I'm not old enough to remember the transition from carbureted cars, but my guess is that if bitog was around then, there would be a similar post about the change to fuel injection. There will always be teething pains with new technology, and I agree that not all new technology is good, but DI was implemented for a reason and isn't likely going to go away, just get better.

Well said, from beginning to end!
Close thread

 

[StevieC]

A properly setup carburettor can be just as reliable as fuel injection. They just require more replacement parts such as floats / choke diaphragms etc. in some cases.

The Mikuni carb on my old 2.6L Caravan never gave me any issues in the 22 years it was on the vehicle other than 1 replacement choke diaphram. It started without priming it with the gas peddle and would even start via remote starter that my dad put on the van, even in the dead of cold winters here in February without fail.

 

[Lolvoguy]

Direct injection isn't new technology. We've known about it for years in it's gasoline application (IIRC before the 90's). The reason it wasn't implemented was because of the current issues we are observing.

I see no problem with port injection. It's been proven as simpler and more reliable.
That's all I need to know when making my decision.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy
Direct injection isn't new technology. We've known about it for years in it's gasoline application (IIRC before the 90's). The reason it wasn't implemented was because of the current issues we are observing.

I see no problem with port injection. It's been proven as simpler and more reliable.
That's all I need to know when making my decision.

DI = more power and better mpg, why ignore this? It's simply a matter of working the kinks out; which by the way is happening already with current DI engines. I'm sure an icebox is simpler and more reliable than a refrigerator

Look, people fear innovation (change really), but without it, we dont grow as a civilization. And let me point out that it's a boon for the economy as well.

 

[Nick1994]

Again, can someone discuss and provide evidence of issues with direct injection engines?

All I see on here are people saying there’s a problem, without saying what the problem is.

 

[StevieC]

I think to they try to work all this out ahead of it being released to the public but the public is the ultimate test pool and well there are growing pains. They are addressing them and that's good, it just sucks for some folks that are early adopters.

This is why I wouldn't buy newer engine model until it has been proven. DI or not.

 

[jeepman3071]

I like technology, and work in the field.

The issue I have is that for many technologies the consumer becomes the test mule. Fine for a $700 iPhone, but more of an issue for a $60,000 car or pickup truck. The 9 speed auto in the newer Cherokee KL's has a bad reputation, because a software glitch would often cause the vehicle to stop moving on the highway.

Like I said I love technology, but if my laptop or iPhone has a glitch it usually won't leave me stranded on the side of the highway in the middle of nowhere.

 

[StevieC]

I think though it's a function of they try to predict all the possible scenarios but can't and it's also a race because of competition nipping at your heals, and the government pushing you for ever increasing economy.

I wouldn't want to be in their shoes that's for sure.

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Again, can someone discuss and provide evidence of issues with direct injection engines?

All I see on here are people saying there’s a problem, without saying what the problem is.


This is a fair point. Other than the LSPI issue discussed elsewhere (which can be really serious) and some intake deposit issues for early DI adopters, there isn't much evidence of widespread problems.

But all of this stuff involves some black science that is hard to get our arms around. For instance:

1) Fuel dilution as we see in DI/TGDI engines may be harmless. Or it could be harmful as engines age. Is it OK forever? For 100,000 miles? For the warranty period? We don't have tons of DI/TGDI engines with mega miles from lots of manufacturers yet so while odds are it's fine, we can't be sure.

2) LSPI is a real wild card as it seemingly can happen anytime, without abuse or poor maintenance. And if it happens beyond warranty, it can be a really expensive fix. Maybe Dexos1 Gen2 and GF6 will help.

To abuse a phrase, "BITOG abhors a vacuum" and absent either lots of experience or candid communications from OEMs or a body with real resources, we'll have a lot of skeptics. Having one of the respected car magazines or Consumer Reports take up the issue, interview OEM engineers or retain independent labs would
help.

With the unknowns it's not surprising that port fuel injection looks like a safe haven to many. I'd gladly exchange 1 mpg of benefit for not having the DI downsides to fret about.

 

[GMBoy]

My daily driver is an 08 Cadillac CTS 3.6DI. I have 146,000 on it now and no problems. I did a UOA around 12k and somewhere around 75k miles and the reports were fine with no fuel dilution. I run 5-6k mile oil changes with Mobil 1 EP until 125k miles when I switched to M1 high mileage. So here is an almost 10 year old car with no DI problems and runs just as strong as mile 1.

 

[Nick1994]

No fuel dilution in my car, I did a UOA and it came back beautiful. Just changed the oil last weekend, not even the slightest hint of fuel smell.

Ok I’ve heard of carbon deposits, but I haven’t heard of that mattering. Sounds like if the only objective is performance and longevity of a car, and the paint is fading, does it really matter? Is the car not going to run as long because the paint is faded? That’s how I see carbon deposit buildup, as a non issue until I see evidence that it matters.