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CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? #4548350
10/19/17 01:57 PM
10/19/17 01:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 120
Los Angeles, Ca
VWguy Offline OP
VWguy  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 120
Los Angeles, Ca
Hello all. I would like to inquire if any of the following statements made on a VW forum have any merit while using Diesel oil's in flat tappet air-cooled engines.

Statement 1- "You should no longer run any Diesel oils in a gasoline engine. The Government changed the oil regulations a few years ago. The additive packages including the ant-foaming agents and detergents are not right for a gas engine. Many people are now reporting 15-20 degree hotter oil temps with these Diesel oils."

Statement 2- " I've resisted using the diesel oils because I've read that the diesel oil's aggressive detergent package is potentially hazardous to a gasoline engine's ring seal."

My application's include mild builds with mild cams and HD single springs, and include oil filter and additional capacity via a sump. I have "successfully" used both Delo and Rotella 15w-40 oils for over a decade with no noticeable concerns. My location is the SoCal coastal areas.
For what it is worth none of the above individuals have posted any documentation to support their statements.

Thanks, Bill.

Last edited by VWguy; 10/19/17 01:59 PM.
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548363
10/19/17 02:08 PM
10/19/17 02:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,154
MA
Wolf359 Online content
Wolf359  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,154
MA
I don't know about VW, but it's the same for Mercedes, they spec a 229.5 oil for gas engines and either 229.51 or 229.52 for diesels. I wouldn't use a diesel oil in a gasser or vice versa.

Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548371
10/19/17 02:18 PM
10/19/17 02:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,758
Upstate NY
Donald Online content
Donald  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,758
Upstate NY
If a diesel oil still has a proper gas rating like a SN, then should be fine for a gas engine.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548389
10/19/17 02:42 PM
10/19/17 02:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,295
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,295
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: VWguy
Statement 1- "You should no longer run any Diesel oils in a gasoline engine. The Government changed the oil regulations a few years ago. The additive packages including the ant-foaming agents and detergents are not right for a gas engine. Many people are now reporting 15-20 degree hotter oil temps with these Diesel oils."

If it still carries API SM/SN rating for gasoline engines, then I'd say it's OK to use in gasoline engines. But, see my point further down...


Quote:
Statement 2- " I've resisted using the diesel oils because I've read that the diesel oil's aggressive detergent package is potentially hazardous to a gasoline engine's ring seal."

"Diesel oils" is a big bucket that can span a ton of different specifications and requirements. For example, there are a lot of diesel oils out there today that are geared toward engines with modern emissions equipment such as DPF. Such oils actually have a reduced additive package in order to protect DPF. So, for gasoline engines, the only downside would be quicker add pack depletion, which means you should not be running them for a very long OCI, at least until our gasoline truly becomes ultra low sulfur. I think you guys in Cali already have ULS gasoline. The rest of the country is playing catch-up.



'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (FF)
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548390
10/19/17 02:43 PM
10/19/17 02:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Many oils here are double rated... So you get bounch of standards on the back of the label... For helix ultra it looks like...

Acea A3/B4 Bmw LL-01 MB 229.5 and then I am not sure if it is VW 502-505...

Also API SN(M?)/CF

And then you have helix ultra diesel with exactly the same standards...but a little pricier because it has a word "diesel" written on a front sticker smile


2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548392
10/19/17 02:46 PM
10/19/17 02:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
There you have them...
Quote:
Specifications: API SN/CF; ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4; BMW LL-01; MB approval 229.5, 226.5; VW 502.00/505.00; Porsche A40; Renault RN0700, RN0710; PSA B71 2296, Ferrari. Meets the requirements of Fiat 9.55535-Z2 and Chrysler MS-10725


http://www.shell.com/motorist/oils-lubri...ltra-5w-40.html

Last edited by Kamele0N; 10/19/17 02:46 PM.

2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: Kamele0N] #4548395
10/19/17 02:48 PM
10/19/17 02:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,295
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,295
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
There you have them...
Quote:
Specifications: API SN/CF; ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4; BMW LL-01; MB approval 229.5, 226.5; VW 502.00/505.00; Porsche A40; Renault RN0700, RN0710; PSA B71 2296, Ferrari. Meets the requirements of Fiat 9.55535-Z2 and Chrysler MS-10725


Which one of the above is a diesel spec, other than maybe API CF which is very outdated? smile



'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (FF)
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548412
10/19/17 03:10 PM
10/19/17 03:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU


2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: Kamele0N] #4548418
10/19/17 03:15 PM
10/19/17 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,295
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,295
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
ACEA A3/B4

Kind of, but ACEA C and E are the proper diesel specs, not really A/B.

Quote:
LL-01

LL-01 is for gasoline engines. LL-04 is for diesels.

Quote:
229.5

229.5 is for gasoline engines. 229.51 and 229.52 are for diesels.

Quote:
505

502.00/505.00 is for gasoline engines. 504.00/507.00 is for diesels.



'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (FF)
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548424
10/19/17 03:22 PM
10/19/17 03:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
You are mixing....

FULL SAPS diesel specs (till euro4 emission standard) B4...LL-01...505...229.5

With LOW/MID SAPS ones.(euro 5 and above) ... Cx (x ranges from 1-4)...507....229.51/52...LL-04

With Heavy Duty ones...Acea Ex (x=4,6,7,9)

smile

Last edited by Kamele0N; 10/19/17 03:35 PM.

2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: VWguy] #4548425
10/19/17 03:24 PM
10/19/17 03:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Heavy Duty means diesel only here over the pond... Semis... Haulers... V6 V8 OR MORE....turbo diesels smile

Last edited by Kamele0N; 10/19/17 03:25 PM.

2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: Kamele0N] #4548446
10/19/17 03:59 PM
10/19/17 03:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,154
MA
Wolf359 Online content
Wolf359  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,154
MA
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Many oils here are double rated... So you get bounch of standards on the back of the label... For helix ultra it looks like...

Acea A3/B4 Bmw LL-01 MB 229.5 and then I am not sure if it is VW 502-505...

Also API SN(M?)/CF

And then you have helix ultra diesel with exactly the same standards...but a little pricier because it has a word "diesel" written on a front sticker smile


I'm not sure I'm really following your point. For MB, as others said 229.5 is for gas, 229.51 or 229.52 is for diesel. You haven't shown a motor oil that's both. You can use one in the other, but it's not really recommended if you're going to stick to the long change interval that's normal on MB in the US which is 10k.

I'm not sure you can have a high saps oil and a low saps oil at the same time. It's like having tea and no tea at the same time.

Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4548448
10/19/17 04:00 PM
10/19/17 04:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,749
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,749
Rijeka, EU
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
There you have them...
Quote:
Specifications: API SN/CF; ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4; BMW LL-01; MB approval 229.5, 226.5; VW 502.00/505.00; Porsche A40; Renault RN0700, RN0710; PSA B71 2296, Ferrari. Meets the requirements of Fiat 9.55535-Z2 and Chrysler MS-10725


Which one of the above is a diesel spec, other than maybe API CF which is very outdated? smile


A3/B3 and A3/B4 are dual rated oils. That's the "B" in specifications. Cx specifications is also dual rated, compatible with aftertreatment devices.
Ex are single rated HDDO.


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: Kamele0N] #4548451
10/19/17 04:02 PM
10/19/17 04:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,749
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,749
Rijeka, EU
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Heavy Duty means diesel only here over the pond... Semis... Haulers... V6 V8 OR MORE....turbo diesels smile

Inline 6 my friend. That configuration is used nowadays.


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
Re: CONCERNS WITH NEWER DIESEL OILS ? [Re: Wolf359] #4548485
10/19/17 04:38 PM
10/19/17 04:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,199
Slovenia EU
Originally Posted By: Wolf359


I'm not sure I'm really following your point. For MB, as others said 229.5 is for gas, 229.51 or 229.52 is for diesel. You haven't shown a motor oil that's both. You can use one in the other, but it's not really recommended if you're going to stick to the long change interval that's normal on MB in the US which is 10k.

I'm not sure you can have a high saps oil and a low saps oil at the same time. It's like having tea and no tea at the same time.


http://www.oilspecifications.org/mercedes_mb.php

Look at the definition of 229.5....first it has to meet acea A3/B3/B4 as a minimum.....plus some additional MB specs...to became 229.5...

Acea has A for a gasoline and B for a diesel engines...


2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
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