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Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. #4547832
10/19/17 03:36 AM
10/19/17 03:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 754
Specific Ocean
Kibitoshin Online content OP
Kibitoshin  Online Content OP
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 754
Specific Ocean
https://blog.caranddriver.com/engines-wi...ize-downsizing/

Quote:
The first element of the design, which they call “synergistic induction and turbocharging,” is to place individual throttles—two per cylinder, one for each intake port—right next to the cylinder head. “Between the throttle and the intake valves, the typical engine has an intake-manifold volume roughly equivalent to the engine displacement,” Clarke says. “That takes time to fill when you open the throttle.” His configuration allows the cylinders to fill much more quickly, rapidly generating full torque and a maximum dose of high-energy exhaust gas. Exploiting that exhaust is the next key idea.


Shin Gekiretsu Shin'ou'hou
01 Toyota Tundra 2WD V8 4.7L - 170k mi
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Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4547834
10/19/17 03:49 AM
10/19/17 03:49 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 663
Perth, Western Australia
Brad_C Offline
Brad_C  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 663
Perth, Western Australia
There is a reason individual throttle bodies have been the thing in high performance for years. Complex, fussy and sometimes awkward to set up and balance, but a much snappier throttle response.

Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4547877
10/19/17 06:07 AM
10/19/17 06:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 593
Margate England
Claud Offline
Claud  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 593
Margate England
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.

Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4547896
10/19/17 06:37 AM
10/19/17 06:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,941
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,941
'Stralia
Back in the day "split pulse" separated the individual exhaust events to provide more impulse to the turbines...made lots of sense over the log manifold early turbo days.

But this concept has flaws...4 tiny turbos, with 4 radial clearances on a small diameter wheel, 4 moments of inertia combined, and 540 degrees of engine rotation before each impulse make me feel that the original "throttle plate near the cylinder" is marketting speak for give me funding.

Yes, keep the turbo close to the exhaust port...it's basic physics, on a thermo and retained energy basis.

Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4547909
10/19/17 06:49 AM
10/19/17 06:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,111
ME
eljefino Offline
eljefino  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,111
ME
So if you have an engine's displacement of vacuum in the intake that needs consuming, that should get sucked in in two to four revolutions (one to two power strokes). At 1500 RPM that's 1/375 minute or 1/6 second. Can you really nail the gas that fast and feel it?

Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4547988
10/19/17 08:27 AM
10/19/17 08:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
An engine I dealt with in the past had 4 turbos and two blowers for 16 cylinders. Detroit 16V149TI.

Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4548004
10/19/17 08:40 AM
10/19/17 08:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,288
San Antonio, TX
E150GT Offline
E150GT  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,288
San Antonio, TX
Yeah I can see that getting pretty expensive.


1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD - 100k
1995 F150 XL 4.9 reg cab 5MT - 251k 5w30
2016 Mazda6 Touring 6MT - 57k 10w30
2006 Buick Lucerne CXL 3.8 31k 5w30
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4548101
10/19/17 10:13 AM
10/19/17 10:13 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,329
Oklahoma
Schmoe Offline
Schmoe  Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,329
Oklahoma
What about the heat???


01 Supercrew Lariat 4X4
06 Accord EX-L V6
14 CRV EX-L (RIP) 2018 CRV EX-L
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4548109
10/19/17 10:21 AM
10/19/17 10:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,795
Ontario, Canada
StevieC Offline
StevieC  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,795
Ontario, Canada
I was thinking what about weight. You know automakers and their reductions everywhere possible.


'18 Highlander - AMSOIL SS 0w20 / ATF / Severe Gear
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF (R.I.P)
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Claud] #4548127
10/19/17 10:47 AM
10/19/17 10:47 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,397
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Online content
DoubleWasp  Online Content
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,397
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: DoubleWasp] #4548170
10/19/17 11:21 AM
10/19/17 11:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,232
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,232
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.


I believe you are incorrect. I, up until recently, owned an E39 M5 and my recollection of how that system operated was as follows:

There are two banks of linked throttles, each bank of 4 sharing a single TPS with a centre link to the electric motor in the valley, which actuates both banks of 4 together.




2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4548197
10/19/17 11:41 AM
10/19/17 11:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,239
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,239
Wet side WA
Originally Posted By: Kibitoshin
https://blog.caranddriver.com/engines-wi...ize-downsizing/

Quote:
The first element of the design, which they call “synergistic induction and turbocharging,” is to place individual throttles—two per cylinder, one for each intake port—right next to the cylinder head. “Between the throttle and the intake valves, the typical engine has an intake-manifold volume roughly equivalent to the engine displacement,” Clarke says. “That takes time to fill when you open the throttle.” His configuration allows the cylinders to fill much more quickly, rapidly generating full torque and a maximum dose of high-energy exhaust gas. Exploiting that exhaust is the next key idea.


No thanks cars already have enough problems without introducing more of them.


2004 Corolla 124900
Out: VML 5w-30 TG4967 OCI 5007 Miles
In: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 122537 7-18-18
2006 Duramax 74277
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 74705 4-22-18
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: OVERKILL] #4548209
10/19/17 11:52 AM
10/19/17 11:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,795
Ontario, Canada
StevieC Offline
StevieC  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,795
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.


I believe you are incorrect. I, up until recently, owned an E39 M5 and my recollection of how that system operated was as follows:

There are two banks of linked throttles, each bank of 4 sharing a single TPS with a centre link to the electric motor in the valley, which actuates both banks of 4 together.






Dealer to Customer:

We reccommend cleaning your throttle bodies. For only $349.95 we can do this for you. LOL


'18 Highlander - AMSOIL SS 0w20 / ATF / Severe Gear
'06 Santa Fe - 535,000km AMSOIL SS 0w30 / ATF (R.I.P)
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin] #4548606
10/19/17 07:21 PM
10/19/17 07:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,755
Crawfordville FL
SilverFusion2010 Offline
SilverFusion2010  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,755
Crawfordville FL
I think the twin scroll design on the headifold that ford is using on the I4 turbo engines is about as efficient as it gets. Think tri-y but pushing a turbo plus scavenging.


2010 Ford Fusion SE 3.0L V6, 178k miles M1 HM 10w-30
Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: OVERKILL] #4548822
10/20/17 01:00 AM
10/20/17 01:00 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,397
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Online content
DoubleWasp  Online Content
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,397
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.


I believe you are incorrect. I, up until recently, owned an E39 M5 and my recollection of how that system operated was as follows:

There are two banks of linked throttles, each bank of 4 sharing a single TPS with a centre link to the electric motor in the valley, which actuates both banks of 4 together.





It seems you are correct, and the matter is that BMW marketing material supplied to potential customers as well as the media claimed independent control of each throttle body.

The brochure BMW mailed me back in 99 claimed it, and Road and Track had the same information. Jalopnik still has it. But there's no denying the schematics. That sure does not look like individually controlled throttles to me.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
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