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#4547832 - 10/19/17 03:36 AM Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink.
Kibitoshin Offline


Registered: 04/19/16
Posts: 696
Loc: Kaiōshinkai
https://blog.caranddriver.com/engines-wi...ize-downsizing/

Quote:
The first element of the design, which they call “synergistic induction and turbocharging,” is to place individual throttles—two per cylinder, one for each intake port—right next to the cylinder head. “Between the throttle and the intake valves, the typical engine has an intake-manifold volume roughly equivalent to the engine displacement,” Clarke says. “That takes time to fill when you open the throttle.” His configuration allows the cylinders to fill much more quickly, rapidly generating full torque and a maximum dose of high-energy exhaust gas. Exploiting that exhaust is the next key idea.
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#4547834 - 10/19/17 03:49 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
Brad_C Offline


Registered: 07/27/12
Posts: 617
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
There is a reason individual throttle bodies have been the thing in high performance for years. Complex, fussy and sometimes awkward to set up and balance, but a much snappier throttle response.

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#4547877 - 10/19/17 06:07 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
Claud Offline


Registered: 02/11/14
Posts: 593
Loc: Margate England
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.

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#4547896 - 10/19/17 06:37 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39875
Loc: 'Stralia
Back in the day "split pulse" separated the individual exhaust events to provide more impulse to the turbines...made lots of sense over the log manifold early turbo days.

But this concept has flaws...4 tiny turbos, with 4 radial clearances on a small diameter wheel, 4 moments of inertia combined, and 540 degrees of engine rotation before each impulse make me feel that the original "throttle plate near the cylinder" is marketting speak for give me funding.

Yes, keep the turbo close to the exhaust port...it's basic physics, on a thermo and retained energy basis.

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#4547909 - 10/19/17 06:49 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
eljefino Offline


Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 32640
Loc: ME
So if you have an engine's displacement of vacuum in the intake that needs consuming, that should get sucked in in two to four revolutions (one to two power strokes). At 1500 RPM that's 1/375 minute or 1/6 second. Can you really nail the gas that fast and feel it?

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#4547988 - 10/19/17 08:27 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1268
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
An engine I dealt with in the past had 4 turbos and two blowers for 16 cylinders. Detroit 16V149TI.

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#4548004 - 10/19/17 08:40 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
E150GT Offline


Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 1106
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Yeah I can see that getting pretty expensive.
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#4548101 - 10/19/17 10:13 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
Schmoe Offline


Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 7256
Loc: Oklahoma
What about the heat???
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#4548109 - 10/19/17 10:21 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
StevieC Offline


Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 17116
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I was thinking what about weight. You know automakers and their reductions everywhere possible.
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#4548127 - 10/19/17 10:47 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Claud]
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5236
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.
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#4548170 - 10/19/17 11:21 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: DoubleWasp]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36464
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.


I believe you are incorrect. I, up until recently, owned an E39 M5 and my recollection of how that system operated was as follows:

There are two banks of linked throttles, each bank of 4 sharing a single TPS with a centre link to the electric motor in the valley, which actuates both banks of 4 together.


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#4548197 - 10/19/17 11:41 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
JohnnyJohnson Offline


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2754
Loc: Wet side WA
Originally Posted By: Kibitoshin
https://blog.caranddriver.com/engines-wi...ize-downsizing/

Quote:
The first element of the design, which they call “synergistic induction and turbocharging,” is to place individual throttles—two per cylinder, one for each intake port—right next to the cylinder head. “Between the throttle and the intake valves, the typical engine has an intake-manifold volume roughly equivalent to the engine displacement,” Clarke says. “That takes time to fill when you open the throttle.” His configuration allows the cylinders to fill much more quickly, rapidly generating full torque and a maximum dose of high-energy exhaust gas. Exploiting that exhaust is the next key idea.


No thanks cars already have enough problems without introducing more of them.
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#4548209 - 10/19/17 11:52 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: OVERKILL]
StevieC Offline


Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 17116
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.


I believe you are incorrect. I, up until recently, owned an E39 M5 and my recollection of how that system operated was as follows:

There are two banks of linked throttles, each bank of 4 sharing a single TPS with a centre link to the electric motor in the valley, which actuates both banks of 4 together.






Dealer to Customer:

We reccommend cleaning your throttle bodies. For only $349.95 we can do this for you. LOL
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'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535,000km - SSO 0w30 (R.I.P)

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#4548606 - 10/19/17 07:21 PM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: Kibitoshin]
SilverFusion2010 Offline


Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 1663
Loc: Crawfordville FL
I think the twin scroll design on the headifold that ford is using on the I4 turbo engines is about as efficient as it gets. Think tri-y but pushing a turbo plus scavenging.
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#4548822 - 10/20/17 01:00 AM Re: Individual turbos per cylinder as engines shrink. [Re: OVERKILL]
DoubleWasp Offline


Registered: 05/21/12
Posts: 5236
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Claud
Motor bikes have been doing this for years. Brac_C has nailed it, good throttle response, but tricky to set up correctly.
However this is the era of fly by wire throttle, so a computer constantly monitoring things might take care of keeping everything spot on?.

Claud.


When the E39 debuted, it did so with 8 throttles for 8 cylinders, able to move 100% independently from each other for maximum performance and drivability.

Of course, the thing now is to simply have no throttle at all.

On topic, a series of smaller turbos is pretty much never as efficient as a single larger one.


I believe you are incorrect. I, up until recently, owned an E39 M5 and my recollection of how that system operated was as follows:

There are two banks of linked throttles, each bank of 4 sharing a single TPS with a centre link to the electric motor in the valley, which actuates both banks of 4 together.





It seems you are correct, and the matter is that BMW marketing material supplied to potential customers as well as the media claimed independent control of each throttle body.

The brochure BMW mailed me back in 99 claimed it, and Road and Track had the same information. Jalopnik still has it. But there's no denying the schematics. That sure does not look like individually controlled throttles to me.
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