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Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? #4543337
10/14/17 03:10 PM
10/14/17 03:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,128
Michigan
ZZman Online content OP
ZZman  Online Content OP
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,128
Michigan
Oil companies develop motor oils with a balance in mind of performance, cleanliness, fuel economy etc. This made me wonder if many of the additives that have large amounts of things like detergents, moly, boron, ZDDP etc are actually not good and affect the balance negatively that the motor oils are meant to have.

Your thoughts?

Last edited by ZZman; 10/14/17 03:10 PM.

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Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4543353
10/14/17 03:29 PM
10/14/17 03:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,504
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,504
Wet side WA
The top oils today are so good compared to say the 60's why would you add anything? If you want molly for instance you just buy something like QSUD etc.

Last edited by JohnnyJohnson; 10/14/17 03:29 PM.

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Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4543442
10/14/17 05:29 PM
10/14/17 05:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 132
oklahoma
hyperscion Offline
hyperscion  Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 132
oklahoma
Do the aftermarket oil additives companys, ALSO not take into acct, of balance of oil additives, in the mix??
as in not to make the final mix of oil, not good for the engine.
Its all about money on both sides. JUST stick with 1 good oil while engine is new,,then play

Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: hyperscion] #4543541
10/14/17 07:14 PM
10/14/17 07:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,268
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,268
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: hyperscion
Do the aftermarket oil additives companys, ALSO not take into acct, of balance of oil additives, in the mix??
as in not to make the final mix of oil, not good for the engine.
Its all about money on both sides. JUST stick with 1 good oil while engine is new,,then play

How would an additive company know the formulation of any specific oil that it might be added to? Not all formulated oils are the same nor do they use the same additive package.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4544879
10/16/17 08:06 AM
10/16/17 08:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Oil companies develop motor oils with a balance in mind of performance, cleanliness, fuel economy etc. This made me wonder if many of the additives that have large amounts of things like detergents, moly, boron, ZDDP etc are actually not good and affect the balance negatively that the motor oils are meant to have.

Your thoughts?

Your wonderings and assumptions are correct. They are (in general) not good for the balance and will negatively affect performance in some way. It might not be obvious but they are rarely benign and even more rarely beneficial.

An improvement is not impossible, but it is both unlikely and unrepeatable if attempted by another person in another car. If an improvement were obtained, it would be out of pure random luck that the specific concentration of that specific additive worked synergistically with the existing additives of the oil (Yes, synergy between additives is real and not just a buzzword, but they are very carefully selected by formulators).

As kschachn mentioned, the additive manufacturers have no idea what original additives they are top treating to make it suitable universally, and therefore, it is a complete shot in the dark with the odds very much stacked against it to be effective in any way.

Last edited by MotoTribologist; 10/16/17 08:06 AM.
Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4545006
10/16/17 09:40 AM
10/16/17 09:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
I just happened to see this article today by coincidence. It has a brief mention about synergism and antagonism between additives:

TLT November 2017: The Chemistry and Function of Lubricant Additives

Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4545197
10/16/17 01:10 PM
10/16/17 01:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Hey, I have 30 partial bottles of 30 different oils in my garage. Will it hurt anything to mix these together? smile

Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: bigj_16] #4545212
10/16/17 01:37 PM
10/16/17 01:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,268
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,268
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Hey, I have 30 partial bottles of 30 different oils in my garage. Will it hurt anything to mix these together? smile

The point being that it is highly unlikely it will help anything however.

How is it grossly different than if you are on heart medication and you mix 1/4 of a pill from a Merck drug, 1/4 from an Abbot drug, 1/4 from a Bayer drug and 1/4 from Eli Lilly (assuming they all make heart drugs)? Would you expect that from your random mixture you would be better off than using one drug as prescribed?

The mixibility criteria for oils say that nothing bad such as clumping or other other catastrophic problems will occur, but they also don't say that anything good will happen either.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: kschachn] #4545632
10/16/17 08:31 PM
10/16/17 08:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Hey, I have 30 partial bottles of 30 different oils in my garage. Will it hurt anything to mix these together? smile

The point being that it is highly unlikely it will help anything however.

How is it grossly different than if you are on heart medication and you mix 1/4 of a pill from a Merck drug, 1/4 from an Abbot drug, 1/4 from a Bayer drug and 1/4 from Eli Lilly (assuming they all make heart drugs)? Would you expect that from your random mixture you would be better off than using one drug as prescribed?

The mixibility criteria for oils say that nothing bad such as clumping or other other catastrophic problems will occur, but they also don't say that anything good will happen either.

You did see the smiley face, right? whistle

Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4545792
10/17/17 04:04 AM
10/17/17 04:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,513
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,513
'Stralia
For example, Moly disulfide is used as a catalyst in cracking hydrocarbons...it makes me wonder how overdosing with it would affect the oxidation life of the oil.

Yes, MODTC forms MoS2 in the tribofilm, and the MoS2 is an integral part of the wear protection, but it's tiny amounts, and mostly plated on surfaces....not sure how a teaspoon plus of powdered moly is going to behave.

If the miscibility standard is so vague, the oil must mix with 7 reference oils, be froxen, heated, and frozen again, without splitting or precipitates, no performance standard at all other than that, then additive manufacturers can't suggest that their additives are:
* always beneficial;
* mostly beneficial; or
* always without harm.

Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4547822
10/19/17 01:23 AM
10/19/17 01:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,425
Kansas @ CZ factory
Marco620 Offline
Marco620  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,425
Kansas @ CZ factory
I run Archoil 9100 but at a lesser dosage. I leave the filter and refill and dont add more. Got 125000 miles almost with no ill effects. Going to Ceratec at half dosage soon.


15' Civic R18 199k 0w20 Redline/Archoil9200/TEIN/Eibach/Injen/Tanabe Sustec/Borla Exhaust!
Going for 238,900 milestone. My house to moon is 238,900 miles!
Son of a Navy Corpsman. Support veterans!


Re: Oil additives destroy balance of motor oil? [Re: ZZman] #4548467
10/19/17 03:18 PM
10/19/17 03:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 74
On your screen
OhOMG Offline
OhOMG  Offline
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 74
On your screen
Lucas additive, the thick gooey one, smothers Anti-Foam additives in the motor oil, or at least in the motor oil they tested this with.

Other additives may not do that.


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