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DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? #4535962
10/07/17 07:34 AM
10/07/17 07:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,022
GA.
ChrisD46 Offline OP
ChrisD46  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,022
GA.
Based on above title , will new DEXOS1 Gen 2 PP still be able to claim __% cleaner thsn M1 ? ... For GDI engines I have stayed away from PP due to the high calcium content. I will be curious to see a VOA of the new Gen 2 oil from PP (SOPUS synthetics have a high calcium content in general) . Lastly , curious if Gen 2 spec will create parity as far as oil recipe / content ?


2017 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L GDI 4 cylinder
2010 Hyundai Elantra 2.0L 4 cylinder
2007 Kia Sedona 3.8L 6 cylinder
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4535970
10/07/17 07:43 AM
10/07/17 07:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Calcium isn't the only way to skin the cat, as it were.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4536219
10/07/17 01:07 PM
10/07/17 01:07 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 681
TX
parshisa Offline
parshisa  Offline
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TX
What is this calcium hype all about? People are running high Ca application in their DI and boosted cars with no issues!!! PLease someone enlighten me

Last edited by parshisa; 10/07/17 01:13 PM.

2016 Honda Pilot 3.5V6 PP 0W20
2017 Honda Civic 1.5T Amsoil SS 5W30
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: parshisa] #4536376
10/07/17 05:21 PM
10/07/17 05:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,964
MN
oil_film_movies Online content
oil_film_movies  Online Content
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MN
Originally Posted By: parshisa
What is this calcium hype all about? People are running high Ca application in their DI and boosted cars with no issues!!! PLease someone enlighten me
I used to get LSPI in a 5 year old DI engine, and I'll bet you if I was able to put in an oil that replaced most of the Ca detergents with Mg detergents, it might not have happened.
Its not hype. Infineum ran a lot of tests and found that Ca and Na makes LSPI worse. ZDDP and moly reduces LSPI slightly. Less LSPI if using POE or some other types of esters in your base oil too. Other factors to be sure, yet the idea is to not let the motor oil make it worse.

Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4536378
10/07/17 05:28 PM
10/07/17 05:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
PimTac Online content
PimTac  Online Content
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Soviet State of Washington
Valvoline is noted for its sodium add pack. I'll be curious to see what changes they made to conform to dexos Gen2.


2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter

Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4536400
10/07/17 06:01 PM
10/07/17 06:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
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Posts: 6,987
Texas
Marketing claims whatever they think you can get away with ...

Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4536638
10/07/17 10:57 PM
10/07/17 10:57 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 681
TX
parshisa Offline
parshisa  Offline
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Posts: 681
TX
Ok, if that was the case and Ca is really a killer and promotes LSPI so badly, how does this Amsoil oil still exists (they are not the only ones with high Ca but letís use them as an example)?? All the engines with their SS would be in a junk yard by now. My buddy has a shop for GTRís and all he uses for them is AMSOIL SS, no issues whatsoever. And those cars are boosted as fawk. 0 engine failures. There are certain conditions have to be met for the LSPI occur - high boost low speed. Why in the [censored] would someone floor it in the 6th gear? Common sense it is, common sense.


2016 Honda Pilot 3.5V6 PP 0W20
2017 Honda Civic 1.5T Amsoil SS 5W30
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4536851
10/08/17 07:53 AM
10/08/17 07:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,363
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
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Kendall, FL
Not every car using high Ca oils suffered/will suffer from LSPI but enough have. Some threshold must have been crossed in order to worry the industry as has happened. This is a real concern. If you'd like, search on bitog for the various threads that include a multitude of links covering the topic. Papers from:

Chevron Ornite
Infineum
The SAE
Lubrizol

and others.


'18 KIA Sportage LX AWD: Mobil Super Synthetic 10w30
'13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T: EDGE 5w30
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4536952
10/08/17 09:49 AM
10/08/17 09:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
PimTac Online content
PimTac  Online Content
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Posts: 5,388
Soviet State of Washington
The Chevron Oronite paper that wemay spoke of is a very good source of info regarding LSPI.


https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp


2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter

Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4537112
10/08/17 12:41 PM
10/08/17 12:41 PM
Joined: May 2017
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TX
parshisa Offline
parshisa  Offline
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TX
papers and multiple research articles are definitely a good source of information. although, I tend to read these articles with shovel of salt. so far, what I've read doesn't really say much. too many details are unknown. also, real life examples are the ones that I want to hear about and haven't heard of many. again, I'm not saying it doesn't exist BUT I personally doubt that oil is the major contributor to the issue. Just my opinion, not trying to disprove anything or convince anyone.


2016 Honda Pilot 3.5V6 PP 0W20
2017 Honda Civic 1.5T Amsoil SS 5W30
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: parshisa] #4537154
10/08/17 01:16 PM
10/08/17 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,245
California
Vuflanovsky Offline
Vuflanovsky  Offline
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California
Originally Posted By: parshisa
papers and multiple research articles are definitely a good source of information. although, I tend to read these articles with shovel of salt. so far, what I've read doesn't really say much. too many details are unknown. also, real life examples are the ones that I want to hear about and haven't heard of many. again, I'm not saying it doesn't exist BUT I personally doubt that oil is the major contributor to the issue. Just my opinion, not trying to disprove anything or convince anyone.


Whether Calcium is a major contributor or lesser contributor, there's obviously industry concern about the issue and I don't doubt that the application and driving style might effect it as much as the calcium level. Given that GF-6 has a specific component that acknowledges and addresses LSPI, I would certainly think that this has been a replicated finding in testing whether it ever effects your vehicle or not.

"Real life" tends to be too anecdotal on a board like this ( especially one where enough members think they're rebels for not buying a turbo DI vehicle ) so my takeaway is that there's a definable issue where research into its prevalence and impact is on going along with ways to mitigate it. Maybe that's the way to look at it.

Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: parshisa] #4537194
10/08/17 01:53 PM
10/08/17 01:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
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Posts: 25,355
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: parshisa
Ok, if that was the case and Ca is really a killer and promotes LSPI so badly, how does this Amsoil oil still exists (they are not the only ones with high Ca but letís use them as an example)?? All the engines with their SS would be in a junk yard by now. My buddy has a shop for GTRís and all he uses for them is AMSOIL SS, no issues whatsoever. And those cars are boosted as fawk. 0 engine failures. There are certain conditions have to be met for the LSPI occur - high boost low speed. Why in the [censored] would someone floor it in the 6th gear? Common sense it is, common sense.

Those aren't direct injected, though, if I recall correctly. And, of course, even among forced induction direct injection engines, things are always application dependent.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4537690
10/09/17 06:55 AM
10/09/17 06:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,363
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,363
Kendall, FL
...and in addition to Garak's last post, it's also a low-displacement-turbo-GDi issue. The GTR is not a low displacement application.


'18 KIA Sportage LX AWD: Mobil Super Synthetic 10w30
'13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T: EDGE 5w30
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: ChrisD46] #4537696
10/09/17 07:01 AM
10/09/17 07:01 AM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 681
TX
parshisa Offline
parshisa  Offline
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 681
TX
Right on folks, iíll Take it back on GTR. Brain farts happen

Last edited by parshisa; 10/09/17 07:01 AM.

2016 Honda Pilot 3.5V6 PP 0W20
2017 Honda Civic 1.5T Amsoil SS 5W30
Re: DEXOS 1 Gen 2 PP : Still Cleaner than M1 ? [Re: parshisa] #4537699
10/09/17 07:04 AM
10/09/17 07:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
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Posts: 4,225
New England
Originally Posted By: parshisa
Ok, if that was the case and Ca is really a killer and promotes LSPI so badly, how does this Amsoil oil still exists (they are not the only ones with high Ca but letís use them as an example)?? All the engines with their SS would be in a junk yard by now. My buddy has a shop for GTRís and all he uses for them is AMSOIL SS, no issues whatsoever. And those cars are boosted as fawk. 0 engine failures. There are certain conditions have to be met for the LSPI occur - high boost low speed. Why in the [censored] would someone floor it in the 6th gear? Common sense it is, common sense.


Even Amsoil has accepted that LSPI is a major concern and recently announced that the relevant grades of their SS line have been reformulated to pass the dexos1 Gen 2 LSPI test (they go on to claim that all of the SS oils tested had zero LSPI events in their tests while a maximum of 5 is allowed). They are not actually Gen 2 licensed oils and Amsoil makes it clear that their sulfated ash contents are too high for that standard.
We won't get any clues about what changes Amsoil made until we see some VOAs, and even those won't necessarily tell the whole story, but I suspect it's possible that a high Ca oil could pass the Gen 2 LSPI test if it has lots of ZDDP (typical for their previous SS oils) and moly and doesn't have any sodium detergents (which they did not use before).


2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
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