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Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" #4535856
10/06/17 11:46 PM
10/06/17 11:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 26
Vancouver, BC Canada
Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
Cdn17Sport6MT  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 26
Vancouver, BC Canada
I apologize in advance re the length of this post re manual transaxle fluids.

I would like to get some discussion going to help me with the selection of a manual transmission fluid for my 3rd generation Mazda6 which has a 6 speed transaxle and has all of 1,200 miles on it. Not yet broken in, I know. The transaxle exhibits less than butter-smooth first and second gear synchro action. I note that this “Skyactiv” transmission has triple-cone synchro’s on 1st and 2nd and then single-cone synchro’s on the balance of the gears. Third through sixth gear synchro’s are totally smooth; 1st and 2nd are not perfect… exhibiting “double-bump” and some “notchiness”. In my view – seeing how often this comes up within the Mazda3, Mazda6, and CX3 communities – I would say that the transaxle design is “weak”.

I can get totally smooth 1st to 2nd shifts by: i) double-clutching; or ii) by being really careful with the non-double-clutched shifts… shifts made only at pretty moderate road-speed-in gear speeds, by delaying the shift ever so slightly. The transaxle’s operation is a bit worse with cold MTF versus when at full operating temp. My goal is to smoothen-up first to second to the full extent that I can within the design limitations that (possibly) exist with the C66M-R transaxle. I have been the only person to have ever test-driven this car. I can, on an unqualified basis, say that the 1st and 2nd gear synchro’s have NOT been “knackered” as almost all of my down- as well as up-shifts have been double-clutched accurately. ‘Been at this for 42 years with no worn synchro’s.

I want to try to use the best MTF I can, properly making the choice between shift-smoothness and gear- and bearing longevity. The mfr calls for GL-4 75W-80 fluid.

Following, is a 40 or so year old statement by VW re competing considerations re the choice of lubricant. I believe that this may only in part be accurate in today’s world… in that specific synchromesh friction modifying additives have been added to varying degrees for some of today’s MTF’s – additives that don’t trade-away bearing and gear anti-wear properties in favor of better shift action. This is combined with lower viscosities at 100C, for both again-improved shiftability, and to enhance fuel efficiency. Still, I believe, feature-for-feature being equal, slightly higher viscosities will improve gear face and bearing life expectancies.

Here's VW's statement:

I am considering BG Synchroshift II and also am considering Redline MTF – both being GL-4 75W-80 fluids. For the best life expectancy I would in-a-flash choose Shell S6 GXME fluid, about 9.55 cS at 100C, as Shell lubricants are generally excellent, but I doubt that this Shell lubricant has many additives to enhance shiftability. They target heavy truck transportation and super-long OCI’s.

I have not heard many disparaging comments re the Synchroshift II – but I note that its 100C viscosity is about 7.1 – really quite low. That gives me pause, at least a bit.

The Redline MTF has a 100C viscosity of 10.4 – better – and apparently has a very good rep. re shiftability. It would seem to be a good choice, but I have found some rather disparaging comments about it. I provide these as images. I do not want to incite a highly negative reaction to these, but there does happen to be some negative info out there. These comments date from 2006 through to 2016:






I would also consider other fluids…. combining wear-resistance and excellent shifting performance. Ideas?

My questions include:

-Can I feel confident that the Synchroshift II will give me fairly good antiwear properties, what with its so-low 100C viscosity;
-How do folks answer the comment made that the Redline product is so full of additives, that it centrifuges out many of the additives, and leaves low viscosity depleted-additive oil to poorly protect gear-faces and bearings?; and
- Should I NOT put rare-earth magnets, incorporated into both fill- and drain plugs, when I am planning to do a series of UOA’s? It seems the magnets would be best for after the initial UOA work.

Thank you folks, in advance, for taking the time to comment.

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 10/06/17 11:50 PM. Reason: Did not recognize smiley.

Mazda6 GX (Sport), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi T5 850 NT, 1985
Honda Civic EX 2dr, A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4535893
10/07/17 03:17 AM
10/07/17 03:17 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,626
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,626
Orlando, FL
I'd use OEM MTF.

Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4535899
10/07/17 04:37 AM
10/07/17 04:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,256
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,256
Malaysia
RL MTF of [email protected]*C of 10.4 cSt would offer higher components protection at operating temperatures, should drives exceeding an hour is prevalent here.

However if drives are regularly < 30 minutes ,in terms of components protection I would pick Shell S6 GXME for its higher [email protected]*C of 56 cSt and it carries MT-1.

For smooth synchro shifts, RL MTF likely to have better luck than S6 GXME, I guess.

BG Synchroshift II, though may be a good oil, but I wouldn't consider one for its low [email protected]*C and [email protected]*C.

Are the rants on RL refers to MTF ?

Note:
Quote:




This sounds completely misplaced and baseless.

Quote:
-How do folks answer the comment made that the Redline product is so full of additives, that it centrifuges out many of the additives, and leaves low viscosity depleted-additive oil to poorly protect gear-faces and bearings?; and


It simply means the 'concentration' of said additives is high enough to the extent of approaching additive 'saturation' point in the fluid medium.
Is it bad ? Not necessary.
Is it good? Probably.

Last edited by zeng; 10/07/17 04:48 AM.
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4535916
10/07/17 05:56 AM
10/07/17 05:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,257
VA
Gebo Offline
Gebo  Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,257
VA
I have only had honda, nissan and toyota vehicles with manual tranmissions. My cars never shifted good with the OEM. I always used either Amsoil or Redline. I tried them both in each car and one was always better overall. One would just shift and feel better. But for the most part, I would end up with Redline. It would last the longest before my shifting got notchy. I don't care what the forums say. Redline and Amsoil are top quality lubricants and you won't go wrong with either. In my experience, a thinner oil will not feel as good when shifting. I want it to shift like butter.


'98 LEX LS400 280K
'00 LEX GS300 195K
'02 4Runner 225K
'05 Lex LS430 85K
'06 Toyota Highlander 145K
'09 Lex IS350 85K
'07 Lex GX470 58K

Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4535921
10/07/17 06:08 AM
10/07/17 06:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
.

Last edited by 4WD; 10/07/17 06:11 AM.
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4535926
10/07/17 06:18 AM
10/07/17 06:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,987
Texas
Never seen Redline MTL bashed like that ... have it in my transfer case now in a GM synchromesh application...
What was the bore wear comparison between RL and M1 related to?

Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4535935
10/07/17 06:37 AM
10/07/17 06:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,420
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,420
Jupiter, Florida
I recently used Royal Purple Syncromax in my Turbocharged S2000. If you did not know, the S2000 transmission has some very specific requirements from Honda. And the Honda MTF is a unique product. No matter, the Syncromax works far better than the OEM required MTF in the S2000, with far better shifting.

I also changed the MTF in my Jaguar X-Type. I used Mobil 1 ATF. Amazing improvement over the Redline MTF I had recently used. The Redline MTF resulted in very notchy shifting right away. Hence the need to try something else.

I will try Mobil 1 ATF in my Honda next time!

With regard to transmission lifespan, I've been driving manual transmissions from the very start. I've broken more than a few of them with excessive HP. The only ones that experienced bearing/wear failures were ones where the previous owners failed to change the OEM fluid, or had known lubrication issues, such as the Honda S2000 input shaft bearing lack of lubrication. Matters not what fluid you use, if the bearing gets insufficient oil!


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536031
10/07/17 09:05 AM
10/07/17 09:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 935
South East Asia
kr_bitog Offline
kr_bitog  Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 935
South East Asia
I think in your application, Redline MTL is a good choice. The bashing comment you heard I think is caused by confusion of the Redline product application, and they might use wrong product for the requirement.
In the past, a lot of lightweight application is suggested using ATF rather than proper manual gear fluid.
This may cause a disaster on demanding application, even though the shifting feel may seems ok at the beginning.

So far I have used MT-90 for my Toyota for almost 250K and the gearbox still shifts very nice without excessive clearance that happened to other same model cars at the same age.

Just note that typical manual gear oil is not GL-5 where in certain application is required due to hypoid gear requirement. So as long as the application is correct, I do not have doubt on Redline.

NB:I think for Focus that recommend thick oil, replacing with MTL is a problem, since the spec require thicker oil like MT90

One of my advice on Redline on gearbox is monitor shift quality especially after long high-speed running, when it changes significantly just change the oil. I find gearbox oil is not lasting like differential oil, which in case of M1, you can be safe to run 200k miles on diff without any change.

Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536073
10/07/17 09:49 AM
10/07/17 09:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 513
Vienna, VA
TinyVoices Offline
TinyVoices  Offline
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 513
Vienna, VA
The easy answer is Redline MT90 for an LSD trans and MTL for a non-LSD trans when speaking of fwd vehicles. I use MTL in my sw20 which is technically a fwd setup just in the back of thr car.


1993 Toyota MR2 Hardtop N/A - 160k miles - Valvoline Max Life 5w30
2006 Toyota Matrix XR AWD (Fiancee) - 130k miles - Valvoline Max Life 5w30
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536087
10/07/17 10:05 AM
10/07/17 10:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,706
Southeastern USA
FowVay Offline
FowVay  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,706
Southeastern USA
Transmission fluid is viscosity specific just like engine oil.

Syncromesh fluid is specified in transmissions that allow for a low viscosity fluid such as ATF (around 8cst)

MTL is for applications that would specify a 75W-80 GL4 fluid (around 10 cst)

MT-85 is for applications that specify 75W-85 GL4 fluid (around 12 cst)

MT-90 is for applications that specify 75W-90 GL4 fluid (around 14 cst)

The misapplication of a fluid is solely the fault of the installer. I see this every week where some kid noticed how great Synchromesh fluid worked in his vehicle's transaxle. Even the synchromesh label states that it is for a specific application and will result in premature wear unless specified for that application.

Be mindful of what you're installing. It may take a bit of testing to find a product that works to your liking but it's wise to stick with a viscosity that is specified by the mfgr. Fluid frictional characteristics will vary by brand so sample what's available until you find what works. Blaming Redline for transmission failure because the wrong product was used is foolish.


Quaker State across the board.
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536101
10/07/17 10:33 AM
10/07/17 10:33 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 575
Modesto,CA
mehullica Offline
mehullica  Offline
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 575
Modesto,CA
Redline will work great

Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536119
10/07/17 10:55 AM
10/07/17 10:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 26
Vancouver, BC Canada
Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
Cdn17Sport6MT  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 26
Vancouver, BC Canada
Many thx to all who hav responded. VG and helpful responses. To summarize: try several and stay near or at mfr-rec'd spec. Use UOA and pay attention to shift feel changes, both cold and hot,also,to decide on OCI. Sage advice. This a GREAT forum!


Mazda6 GX (Sport), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi T5 850 NT, 1985
Honda Civic EX 2dr, A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536141
10/07/17 11:27 AM
10/07/17 11:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,947
5600 feet elevation, Arizona
double vanos Offline
double vanos  Offline
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,947
5600 feet elevation, Arizona
Motorcraft XT-M5-QS. Transformed the shifts in both my Mazdaspeed 3s.


Sabine Schmitz is the Queen of the 'Ring; Svetlana Kapanina is the Queen of the SKIES...
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536154
10/07/17 11:48 AM
10/07/17 11:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 26
Vancouver, BC Canada
Cdn17Sport6MT Offline OP
Cdn17Sport6MT  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 26
Vancouver, BC Canada
I know that Ford "Honey" is good stuff but i think it is too high a viscosity for my C66M-R transaxle. Mazda cheaps-out and does not run the speed gears on needle bearings but on splined journals + uses shaft oil funneling... so i want to ensure that speed gear lube remains optimal...

Last edited by Cdn17Sport6MT; 10/07/17 11:49 AM. Reason: typos

Mazda6 GX (Sport), 6MT, 2017
Moto Guzzi T5 850 NT, 1985
Honda Civic EX 2dr, A/T, 1997
Toyota Camry CE, 5MT, 1999
VW (Type2) Kombi, 4MT, 1979
Re: Please help me with the selection of an "MTF" [Re: Cdn17Sport6MT] #4536179
10/07/17 12:22 PM
10/07/17 12:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,412
Seattle-ish, WA
Oro_O Online content
Oro_O  Online Content
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,412
Seattle-ish, WA
Originally Posted By: Cdn17Sport6MT
Many thx to all who hav responded. VG and helpful responses. To summarize: try several and stay near or at mfr-rec'd spec. Use UOA and pay attention to shift feel changes, both cold and hot,also,to decide on OCI. Sage advice. This a GREAT forum!


So what is the factory recommended fluid type for the transmission (Gl-4 or 5, and what weight)? I could not find information on that transmission and year from a casual google search.

I have to say what FowVay said is spot on. Based on the comments you posted, I see various fluids going in W/ORT the spec'd fluid - just on "hey, I heard this rocked."

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