What exactly is LL-01?

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camrydriver111

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A big deal is being made over M1 0W40 not having LL-01 spec. But what exactly is the criteria for the LL-01 spec?

It was my impression LL-01 is to guarantee the oil life for the long OCIs BMW uses in some vehicles (~15,000 miles).

If that's the case and you change your oil earlier than what BMW OLM recommends isn't the spec meaningless?
 
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.
 
Different strokes. I'm thinkin' we all need to use the latest/best spec oils in our engines. Cleaner running is better for longevity. .02.
 
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
A big deal is being made over M1 0W40 not having LL-01 spec. But what exactly is the criteria for the LL-01 spec?

It was my impression LL-01 is to guarantee the oil life for the long OCIs BMW uses in some vehicles (~15,000 miles).

If that's the case and you change your oil earlier than what BMW OLM recommends isn't the spec meaningless?

BMW LL-01 is a set of requirements defined by BMW for their own engines. It's basically just ACEA A3/B4 (really rigorous and comprehensive spec) plus some testing in BMW engines.

Check out this PDF from Afton Chemical. BMW LL-01 is covered on page 129. ACEA A3/B4 is covered on pages 75 through 80.

Yes, part of LL-01 is to guarantee the OCI. But it also covers wear, deposit control, shear stability, foaming, etc. etc. etc. -- lots of stuff that can't be compensated for by just shortening your OCI. I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives that'd work just as well with shorter OCIs; it's just hard to tell what they are without testing.
 
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think Mobil has to pay for the certification

Correct.

Originally Posted By: THafeez
and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification.

Incorrect. There are still TONS of BMW-approved oils from companies other than Pennzoil.
 
Quote:
the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway


Oz still gets the old formula M1 0W40 with a HTHS of 3.8 cP, not the new M1 0W40 FS with a HTHS of 3.6 cP. Two different oils with (almost) the same name.
 
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification.

The thing is, though, there still are Mobil varieties with LL-01, such as Mobil Super 3000 5w-40. Is Mobil expressing their displeasure? Or, do they simply not care about LL-01 any longer? Unless Mobil and/or BMW say something concrete, we'll never know. Even if they do say something, will they be in agreement and will it be correct?

Of course, there are also other varieties with LL-01, so it's not like BMW is only allowing Shell products to carry the certification.
 
Despite all the hypothesis thrown around about why M1 doesn't meet it anymore, the fact is M1 does not meet the spec and others like Castrol do. If I had a BMW I'd use Castrol for that reason alone.
 
And Mobil 1 does not meet Chrysler but Mobil Dino in bulk does ... so of course folks speculating is normal on a pay to play subject ...
Ford bovine output regarding HDEO is another
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
And Mobil 1 does not meet Chrysler but Mobil Dino in bulk does ...

Yes. It's interesting to note that the Mobil Super 3000 product I referenced is a bulk only product, too. Maybe they don't feel like annoying the independent Euro shops.
 
Apart from the wear test LL-01 is the same as ACEA A3/B4. What are the chances that A3/B4 oil with MB, VW, and Porsche certifications would not pass the wear test?
 
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

BMW charges approval process/testing like all other companies.
I was involved in testing and certification of VW 504.00/507.00oil, and VW charged 3,200 euros for certification.
Car companies do not make money granting approvals. It is actually in their interest to have as many oils approved as possible because that makes maintenance of their cars easier and more appealing.
 
Go to exxonmobil.com.sg

That’s a massive operation in S’pore … at the bottom you can find the gold bottle 0w40 with BMW and the other German brands ... Bet that’s sold in Oz … looks like what I found online in Melbourne a few weeks back.
Have seen (and rode in) a number of German cars in S’pore as well…
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

BMW charges approval process/testing like all other companies.
I was involved in testing and certification of VW 504.00/507.00oil, and VW charged 3,200 euros for certification.
Car companies do not make money granting approvals. It is actually in their interest to have as many oils approved as possible because that makes maintenance of their cars easier and more appealing.


Btw, on the other hand - PSA (Peugeot/Citroen/DS) charged 70,000 euros for their Approval(s):

One of the documents of INDEPENDENT UNION OF THE EUROPEAN LUBRICANT INDUSTRY

http://ueil.org/en/upload/docs/automotive/UEILTechnicalBulletin_July10.pdf

In 2009, PSA Peugeot Citroen issued 4 new Technical Specifications, detailing all the tests
and parameters required to meet B71 2290, B71 2294, B71 2295 and B71 2296. However,
these specifications included an internal PSA tests, for which no information was given.
Instead, the Lubricant supplier had to assign every formulation a unique product code,
before submitting the sample and relevant paperwork to PSA for testing. This process was
expected to take 6 months before an approval was given and would cost 70,000 Euro per year per sample

***

Suppose it is simmillar with other french manufacturer (Renault) that is conected with french Total/Elf? (approvals RN0700,RN0710,RN0720)
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DS9
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: THafeez
I think it's a money thing. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 in the US has porsche A40, VW and Benz approvals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mobil has to pay for the certification and if BMW has a certain preference, say for example Pennzoil pays them to promote their product, they'll pull the certification. I looked at the Australia PDS HERE and it shows M1 0W40 still having the same certifications as the previous Mobil 1 0W40. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

BMW charges approval process/testing like all other companies.
I was involved in testing and certification of VW 504.00/507.00oil, and VW charged 3,200 euros for certification.
Car companies do not make money granting approvals. It is actually in their interest to have as many oils approved as possible because that makes maintenance of their cars easier and more appealing.


Btw, on the other hand - PSA (Peugeot/Citroen/DS) charged 70,000 euros for their Approval(s):

One of the documents of INDEPENDENT UNION OF THE EUROPEAN LUBRICANT INDUSTRY

http://ueil.org/en/upload/docs/automotive/UEILTechnicalBulletin_July10.pdf

In 2009, PSA Peugeot Citroen issued 4 new Technical Specifications, detailing all the tests
and parameters required to meet B71 2290, B71 2294, B71 2295 and B71 2296. However,
these specifications included an internal PSA tests, for which no information was given.
Instead, the Lubricant supplier had to assign every formulation a unique product code,
before submitting the sample and relevant paperwork to PSA for testing. This process was
expected to take 6 months before an approval was given and would cost 70,000 Euro per year per sample

***

Suppose it is simmillar with other french manufacturer (Renault) that is conected with french Total/Elf? (approvals RN0700,RN0710,RN0720)

Maybe. On other hand, while some oils carry their approval, many do not.
Maybe price is the key as to why some companies skip approval by PSA which is nothing special in the first place.
 
Originally Posted By: DS9
That is certainly the case with couple of eastern Europe (Balkan) lubricant companies.




There are much bigger companies who are not PSA approved.
 
Maybe it's a marketing campaign to get people talking about M1 0W40.

Then when they bring it back it will be like Coke Classic.
 
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