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#4535020 - 10/05/17 10:13 PM Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls!
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 877
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
Hello,

This is my second UOA on my Montero. The oil change in 2014 was Royal Purple 10w30 and the latter PUP 10w30. The aluminum and copper have me concerned. The Montero does have an oil cooler, but the truck is 23 years old. At least my iron was down, but viscosity changed. I changed the oil to PUP5w30 (currently). I change oil in Severe service, so next time will be at 3,000. I estimate approx 50 miles was 4x4 in various Hi/Lo in the mountains at high elevations 7.,000 >. I'm open to opinions/suggestions. Considering a different oil and interval. *It took 13 days for BlkStn to receive UOA from NM, via USPS. Great service from BlkStn. They hadn't receive the package until today.




Respectfully,

Pajero!
_________________________
Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot

Top
#4535035 - 10/05/17 10:40 PM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 877
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
Boron is rather low!



Respectfully,

Pajero!
_________________________
Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot

Top
#4535060 - 10/06/17 12:15 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
danielLD Offline


Registered: 08/12/17
Posts: 226
Loc: Chicago
What do you want from the truck's engine? Do you want to go cheap or are you willing to spend a little bit of money to make this thing last longer?

1. The insolubles at 0.3 is a bit higher for an older engine, than I'd like to see. Normally 0.2 for an engine over 100,000 is what I would allow. This can be deposits and poor filtration.

2. TBN is low. One thing I never liked about TBN is how companies will refer to it as showing "active additive". This is not true, not one bit. TBN shows the oils ability to fight off acid, it is an indicator of the base stocks, not additives. For additives remaining(active additives), you need a test called FTIR.

3. Your viscosity is low but your flashpoint is not. That is a better thing.

4. Tin is not good, not in an any engine. Tin is not a conforming metal found in these engines until you get into the bearing's races.

5. It seems you're having an issue in the EP area of the engine, you need additional tests to fully see what's taking place inside the engine.

A good starting point would be Amsoil's SS 0W30 formulation or RLI's BioSyn 5W30. I'd start with any of the top filter, i.e. STP XL, Purolator, WIX XP, etc. I highly suggest the XP as the starting point. You can identify the need for fuel additives if you get a few more tests on the next round.

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#4535066 - 10/06/17 12:22 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: danielLD]
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 877
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
Originally Posted By: danielLD
What do you want from the truck's engine? Do you want to go cheap or are you willing to spend a little bit of money to make this thing last longer?

1. The insolubles at 0.3 is a bit higher for an older engine, than I'd like to see. Normally 0.2 for an engine over 100,000 is what I would allow. This can be deposits and poor filtration.

2. TBN is low. One thing I never liked about TBN is how companies will refer to it as showing "active additive". This is not true, not one bit. TBN shows the oils ability to fight off acid, it is an indicator of the base stocks, not additives. For additives remaining(active additives), you need a test called FTIR.

3. Your viscosity is low but your flashpoint is not. That is a better thing.

4. Tin is not good, not in an any engine. Tin is not a conforming metal found in these engines until you get into the bearing's races.

5. It seems you're having an issue in the EP area of the engine, you need additional tests to fully see what's taking place inside the engine.

A good starting point would be Amsoil's SS 0W30 formulation or RLI's BioSyn 5W30. I'd start with any of the top filter, i.e. STP XL, Purolator, WIX XP, etc. I highly suggest the XP as the starting point. You can identify the need for fuel additives if you get a few more tests on the next round.


Thanks for the reply. I want the best. At various times I've used Amsoil Signature 5W30. This Montero has been garaged kept for 23 years and is very well maintained. Most miles are from travelling and moving across the country. I currently use a Fram Ultra, prior was an Amsoil EAO. Where does one get a FTIR? What is the EP of the engine? Thanks in advance! Good night....
_________________________
Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot

Top
#4535068 - 10/06/17 12:30 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
FZ1 Offline


Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 4727
Loc: Texas
Not too bad. Change the oil once every year in the Fall. You could try Mobil 1 AFE.

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#4535069 - 10/06/17 12:34 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
danielLD Offline


Registered: 08/12/17
Posts: 226
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Pajero
Originally Posted By: danielLD
What do you want from the truck's engine? Do you want to go cheap or are you willing to spend a little bit of money to make this thing last longer?

1. The insolubles at 0.3 is a bit higher for an older engine, than I'd like to see. Normally 0.2 for an engine over 100,000 is what I would allow. This can be deposits and poor filtration.

2. TBN is low. One thing I never liked about TBN is how companies will refer to it as showing "active additive". This is not true, not one bit. TBN shows the oils ability to fight off acid, it is an indicator of the base stocks, not additives. For additives remaining(active additives), you need a test called FTIR.

3. Your viscosity is low but your flashpoint is not. That is a better thing.

4. Tin is not good, not in an any engine. Tin is not a conforming metal found in these engines until you get into the bearing's races.

5. It seems you're having an issue in the EP area of the engine, you need additional tests to fully see what's taking place inside the engine.

A good starting point would be Amsoil's SS 0W30 formulation or RLI's BioSyn 5W30. I'd start with any of the top filter, i.e. STP XL, Purolator, WIX XP, etc. I highly suggest the XP as the starting point. You can identify the need for fuel additives if you get a few more tests on the next round.


Thanks for the reply. I want the best. At various times I've used Amsoil Signature 5W30. This Montero has been garaged kept for 23 years and is very well maintained. Most miles are from travelling and moving across the country. I currently use a Fram Ultra, prior was an Amsoil EAO. Where does one get a FTIR? What is the EP of the engine? Thanks in advance! Good night....


Sure, the Amsoil is good oil. I might suggest the RLI, as it is a robust formula, but either are good. I'll have my RC F's UOA posted tomorrow on here with the 10,000 miles of reckless driving I do.

Try the XP then, your filtration isn't good.

EP refers to extreme pressure.

FTIR can be had at a few labs. You can PM me next time and I'll help out.

I'd replace the air filters every 10K at a minimum too.

I love Montero's, in my home country, this was the most sought after vehicle one could buy.

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#4535074 - 10/06/17 12:41 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 877
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
I couldn't edit my last posting, but the latest OCI, I was using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 10W30. Not sure why it sheared and the Boron levels are low. Also, I've been using synthetic oil filters for many years. The OCI, prior I used Amsoil EAO44, and prior to that Royal Purple oil filter. Thanks in advance!



Respectfully,

Pajero!
_________________________
Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot

Top
#4535076 - 10/06/17 12:46 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
danielLD Offline


Registered: 08/12/17
Posts: 226
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Pajero
I couldn't edit my last posting, but the latest OCI, I was using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 10W30, not exactly cheap oil. Not sure why it sheared and the Boron levels are low. Also, I've been using synthetic oil filters for many years. The OCI, prior I used Amsoil EAO44, and prior to that Royal Purple oil filter. Thanks in advance!



Respectfully,

Pajero!


Sorry, didn't it mean it that way. Pennzoil UP is an off the shelf oil, in my books, I call those cheap oils. I understand the value of money and certainly don't mean to be a snob. Try the XP or the Purolator.

The RLI and Amsoil are in different leagues.

It's difficult to say, without guessing, why. Many reasons and speculating why does nothing, at least not for you. If you had a few more tests, you'd see some insights not normally seen in a basic UOA that would explain why and what can be done.

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#4535095 - 10/06/17 02:43 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
Falcon_LS Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 4055
Loc: Kuwait
From experience, my suggestion would be to step up a grade to a 0W-40 or 5W-40 that is ACEA A3 rated at bare minimum, particularly on the 6G74. These engines operate at higher revs than your average engine calling for ILSAC spec oil. My suggestion would be Castrol Edge 0W-40, be in German or Belgian flavor.

If you do not have an oil cooler, it is very easy to set one up with OE. It will not be cheap, but there is an available double stacked air-to-oil cooler with a fan that was standard on many Pajeros. The biggest issue with these was that the fan would give up, but they do last a pretty long time and are very simple to replace if you have the cooler. If you're interested, I can send you the part numbers and screenshots from the parts catalog.
_________________________
99 Explorer: XG8A/GC 0W40
00 Pajero: XG9688/MC 15W40
01 Grand Marquis: XG2/XCess 5W40
03 Expedition SSV: XG2/XCess 5W40
05 Envoy: XG9837/5W30 ESP
06 XJ8L: C2C41611/5W30 ESP
07 SRX: XG8765/5W30 ESP

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#4535105 - 10/06/17 03:38 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Falcon_LS]
danielLD Offline


Registered: 08/12/17
Posts: 226
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
From experience, my suggestion would be to step up a grade to a 0W-40 or 5W-40 that is ACEA A3 rated at bare minimum, particularly on the 6G74. These engines operate at higher revs than your average engine calling for ILSAC spec oil. My suggestion would be Castrol Edge 0W-40, be in German or Belgian flavor.

If you do not have an oil cooler, it is very easy to set one up with OE. It will not be cheap, but there is an available double stacked air-to-oil cooler with a fan that was standard on many Pajeros. The biggest issue with these was that the fan would give up, but they do last a pretty long time and are very simple to replace if you have the cooler. If you're interested, I can send you the part numbers and screenshots from the parts catalog.


Can you give us a background on that experience and your current job title/occupation? Would love to also, hear more about why he should increase to a heavier weight.

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#4535122 - 10/06/17 05:12 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
FlyNavyP3 Offline


Registered: 07/04/16
Posts: 1407
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I'm not sure I agreewith the recommended Wix XP over the Fram Ultra. I love wix filters but the XP has a significantly lower efficiency than the XP wix. I also don't believe that a more expensive oil in the same grade will give you the wear reduction you're looking for. If you want to establish a trend for your engine the way you use it you need to stick to the same oil for several changes, trying a different oil every time is only adding to the data scatter. I'd probably try a M1 10w30/40 HM or a 0w40 for 2-3 oil changes in a row and see what that yields.
_________________________
Luke
P-3C and P-8A Maritime Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Instructor Tactical Coordinator and Mission Commander

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#4535196 - 10/06/17 07:52 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Pajero]
Falcon_LS Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 4055
Loc: Kuwait
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Can you give us a background on that experience and your current job title/occupation? Would love to also, hear more about why he should increase to a heavier weight.


Absolutely. I'm a U.S. diplomat with 480,000 km (that's 300,000 miles) on a '00 Pajero I bought new in October 1999 - that's exactly 18 years with the same vehicle as the OP. The owner's manual allows the operator to select engine oil viscosity based on ambient temperature, with a temperature vs. viscosity chart, allowing you to select anything from a 5W-40 (minimum viscosity) to a 20W-60 (thickest viscosity) with an ACEA A3 approval. I see you mention your home country earlier in this thread, I would imagine you are pretty familiar with these charts overseas. I don't believe those clever Japanese engineers randomly came up with those viscosities.

I may not be doing this as a professional, or have a fancy title like "oil analyst", but I reckon I must have been doing something right to keep this bugger on the road all this time in ambient temperatures hitting 60 C (140 F) under gruelling conditions, burning terrible quality, high sulfur gasoline and without having to deal with the 6G series dreaded oil consumption issues.
_________________________
99 Explorer: XG8A/GC 0W40
00 Pajero: XG9688/MC 15W40
01 Grand Marquis: XG2/XCess 5W40
03 Expedition SSV: XG2/XCess 5W40
05 Envoy: XG9837/5W30 ESP
06 XJ8L: C2C41611/5W30 ESP
07 SRX: XG8765/5W30 ESP

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#4535295 - 10/06/17 10:44 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: FlyNavyP3]
danielLD Offline


Registered: 08/12/17
Posts: 226
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
I'm not sure I agreewith the recommended Wix XP over the Fram Ultra. I love wix filters but the XP has a significantly lower efficiency than the XP wix. I also don't believe that a more expensive oil in the same grade will give you the wear reduction you're looking for. If you want to establish a trend for your engine the way you use it you need to stick to the same oil for several changes, trying a different oil every time is only adding to the data scatter. I'd probably try a M1 10w30/40 HM or a 0w40 for 2-3 oil changes in a row and see what that yields.


I'm not sure why on BITOG, the concept of a better formulation yielding better results is not imaginable.

The XP handles fuel residuals much better, something most BITOGers don't know, because they don't get the right tests on their UOAs.

If you have to trend, you will drop the ball every single time.

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#4535299 - 10/06/17 10:48 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: Falcon_LS]
danielLD Offline


Registered: 08/12/17
Posts: 226
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Can you give us a background on that experience and your current job title/occupation? Would love to also, hear more about why he should increase to a heavier weight.


Absolutely. I'm a U.S. diplomat with 480,000 km (that's 300,000 miles) on a '00 Pajero I bought new in October 1999 - that's exactly 18 years with the same vehicle as the OP. The owner's manual allows the operator to select engine oil viscosity based on ambient temperature, with a temperature vs. viscosity chart, allowing you to select anything from a 5W-40 (minimum viscosity) to a 20W-60 (thickest viscosity) with an ACEA A3 approval. I see you mention your home country earlier in this thread, I would imagine you are pretty familiar with these charts overseas. I don't believe those clever Japanese engineers randomly came up with those viscosities.

I may not be doing this as a professional, or have a fancy title like "oil analyst", but I reckon I must have been doing something right to keep this bugger on the road all this time in ambient temperatures hitting 60 C (140 F) under gruelling conditions, burning terrible quality, high sulfur gasoline and without having to deal with the 6G series dreaded oil consumption issues.


Well, yes, but those are for different reasons down there. I don't think OP is driving in 140f whether.

Every engine is broken in differently, you never know how his history compares with yours.

The Japanese earlier this year announced they would start evaluating viscosities for the first time on the operating film thickness vs. just HTHS.

I think we can all have valid experiences regardless of title, I think however one experience does not always translate into one that applies to everyone.

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#4535317 - 10/06/17 11:22 AM Re: Montero Gen2 UOA advise needed pls! [Re: danielLD]
Oro_O Offline


Registered: 09/20/14
Posts: 1352
Loc: Seattle-ish, WA
Originally Posted By: danielLD
Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
I'm not sure I agreewith the recommended Wix XP over the Fram Ultra.


I'm not sure why on BITOG, the concept of a better formulation yielding better results is not imaginable.


I think that's EXACTLY what people are here looking for. I think you missed the concept of his statement (as well as the whole point of BITOG). FlyNavyP3 was saying the LEVEL of reduction may not be as much as hoped. And that's very plausible. Making an ad hominem attack on FlyNavyP3 is not helpful, and just bad form.

Quote:
The XP handles fuel residuals much better, something most BITOGers don't know, because they don't get the right tests on their UOAs.


That's an interesting statement, but really requires explanation to have validity. I can see how a very different composition of cellulose vs. glass could result in that, but is that the case, or something else? There's a lot of assertion here, which could be quite interesting, but little reasoning or evidence.

Quote:
If you have to trend, you will drop the ball every single time.


Quote:
I think we can all have valid experiences regardless of title, I think however one experience does not always translate into one that applies to everyone.


Those statements are completely contradictory. Which is it?

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