Another Zddp or lack off thread

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I researched this and figure I have read most of what's on the internet about whether a stock flat tappet engine needs higher zddp levels or not and I'm still not convinced either way by what I've read. But my gut tells me no they don't just based on all the old gm trucks I see around still running.

But today my question is if I had to pick a SN rated oil and was worried about this what would be a good oil to use. If you can explain what's in your pick that would give better protection that would be nice.

To help with your pick I have about 15k on a new TBI crate engine and I prefer to stick with 10w30 but if you can convince me other wise I'm open on that. I also want one I can use year round. I don't think it gets cold enough for that long of periods to go to a 5w30 plus I'm thinking of going to yearly OCI's.
 
Did you ever consider tweaking your favorite oil with a ZDDP additive? Rislone and Red Line make them.
 
If you have 15K on it, it should be work hardened already. And the cam, I'm assuming, isn't one of the 70s ones that would wipe lobes. You're good!
 
I thought those motors did NOT have flat tappet cams.

I though GM was running rollers with fast bleed-down (RHODES STYLE) when they went to a 5w30 spec.
 
If you're using the VR1 synthetic 10W30, rated SL, it would be hard to beat. Why do you want to switch to SN? AN old school flat tappet engine doesn't need it, and hopefully you're not having oil burning issues already?
 
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you're using the VR1 synthetic 10W30, rated SL, it would be hard to beat. Why do you want to switch to SN? AN old school flat tappet engine doesn't need it, and hopefully you're not having oil burning issues already?


Not using synthetic just the conventional. The reason I'm researching this is NAPA is the only place in town that stocks it and they don't do a very good job of keeping it in stock so I started buying it at Amazon Prime for $36 for six quarts but they jacked it up to $50 for six quarts which is a little high if you ask me and no sir it's not using any oil. I was just thinking if it doesn't really need the extra zddp I could find something cheaper but still wanted the best protection I could get.

I like the idea of running the T5 or T4 but I've read the 10w30 maybe to thick for the colder days we get around here. I've researched this in the past and we average about 5 days a year below zero with one or two in the minus teens but for the most part it stays above zero.
 
If you have OEM valve springs and a basically stock engine, you should be good at 800 PPM ZDDP. In that range, you have lots of options. PQIA is your friend here when trying to decide on oil with various additive packages.

If you have a Tractor Supply nearby, you can check out their Traveller and Mystic brands. They get good ratings.

If you can stand 15W for cold starts, which is good down to 0*F easily, you have many choices in HDEO. And John Deere Plus 50 is always a good stand by.

If it were my engine, I'd likely just run Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) and be happy with that. It's a very stout oil for off road heavy equipment and seems to do well in all I've tried it in.

I can't get VR-1 in Cali any more, so I went to Delo SD for built engines and have had no issues with flat tappets so far (two engines, SBF & SBC). It's my go-to oil for flat tappets now
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Almost all flat tappet failures I have seen are related to lifters with to soft a face or wrong radious ground in. The lifter starts skidding and then the cam goes ... If you have a lifter issue, the oil will not save you. It's just the way it is ...
 
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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I thought those motors did NOT have flat tappet cams.

I though GM was running rollers with fast bleed-down (RHODES STYLE) when they went to a 5w30 spec.


The old Chevy 350 truck motor was the last American v8 to use flat tappets. They didn't switch on those until the mid to late 90s, Ford and Mopar had gone roller by the mid 1980s (Mopars were a mixed bag for a year or two with the 2-bbl 318s getting rollers and the 360 or 318 police-spec engines getting flat, not sure how Ford phased rollers in).

Rhodes-style bleed-down lifters from the factory? Never heard of an application like that, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

To the OPs point- whether a particular flat-tappet engine needs more ZDDP than ~800 PPM depends on a lot of things. If the cam has 10s of thousands of miles on it, there's less need for ZDDP. If the lift is low and the ramp rates are low... less need for ZDDP. The lighter the valve spring pressures, the less need for ZDDP. So a stock Jeep 4.0 with 100k on the clock doesn't need much ZDDP. Neither does an old Chevy 350 or Mopar 318 with their little bitty cams. But a Mopar with an MP 509, Comp XE or larger, or Hughes fast-lift cam, true 5:1 rockers, and Hemi-style dual valve springs... that's going to need 1200 PPM until its very well broken-in, probably a good idea to just always use an HDEO or vintage engine type high-ZDDP oil.
 
Ford phased in their rollers for Cars first, SUVs second, and Trucks last (somewhere in the mid-1990's). Chrysler was a mixed bag. And GM had some cam/lifter issues with their last flat tappets - mostly lifters ...

As stated, If you have bumped the spring pressures, or gone to steep ramp cam, the oils needed will be different. But your cam card should have told you what to run ...
 
As stated by others, GM's V-8's weren't roller across the board until the Vortec days beginning in '96. Some higher perf. cars, etc. were, but
trucks stayed flat-tappet (small and big block) until they switched from throttle
body to port fuel injection.

And, as others have said, any oil of decent quality should protect a stock cam in any of these engines just fine. I've seen too many flat-tappet 350's and 454's with 175K to 350K+ (in use well up into the days of SM and SN) in hard working trucks that never had a second thought paid to ZDDP in the oil. I run Schaeffer's 7000 10w30 in my '85 454 - not on the low end of the zinc content scale (still SN, though) and a brand that gets generally strong reviews on all their products. My second choice in such engines would probably be Maxlife 10w30, and the HM oil should have a little extra zinc for good measure. 15w is okay down to zero, but a small
block with healthy oil pressure and moderate consumption should live just as long a life on a quality 10w. However, I'm too squeamish to put a 5w30 in any of my old pushrod V8's; 10/30 and 10/40 is my happy place.
 
I started a 528e @-17F It had 10w40 dino in it. Did it crank a bit slow? Yes, and I let it warm up a minute or 2. Bottom line is that it started, and drove me home.
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You probably don't need the extra ZDDP, but I'm in the camp that it doesn't hurt to have it - given you are not burning lots of oil. I like a bit of extra zinc, it's an anti-wear agent that protects the metal and an antioxidant that protects the oil from degrading.

Shell Rotella T5 10W-30 API CK-4, recent BITOG VOA gave ~ 1170 ppm zinc and ~ 200 ppm Boron with a Ca detergent package of ~ 2200 ppm. It's "just" CK-4 (no SN), but this oil is also rated ACEA E9 which is a high quality European heavy duty (diesel) oil spec., but similar in many ways to their A3/B4 dual rated (Petrol/Gas and light duty diesel) spec.

Anyway I personally would have no problems using a E9 oil in an average petrol/gas engine. The E6 and E9 oils both require a Sulphated Ash level of 1.0 % or less, which places it squarely in PCMO territory.

Ref:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4378040/
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
If you have OEM valve springs and a basically stock engine, you should be good at 800 PPM ZDDP. In that range, you have lots of options. PQIA is your friend here when trying to decide on oil with various additive packages.


Not many 10w30 oils listed at PQIA and even less when you figure what I can find locally but it looks like PYB 10w30 would be good choice and it's not that much lower than what was posted in the VOA section for VR1 10w30 in that blind study as far as zink and phosphorus. All three labs reported it being way lower than what is listed on the Valvoline site so there must be something to it unless all three labs are wrong.

Valvoline website.
Zn 1400
P 1300

VOA from blind study, Blackstone, Polaris and Wix labs.
Zn 1040, 1082, 982
P 910, 958, 898

PYB from PQIA
Zn 894
P 770

Thanks all for your time.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Ford phased in their rollers for Cars first, SUVs second, and Trucks last (somewhere in the mid-1990's). Chrysler was a mixed bag.


Not much "mixed," really. Chrysler was 100% roller lifters on V8 engines by about 1989 (1988 for the 318) along with the 90-degree 3.9 v6, well before the "Magnum" version starting in 1992. The 60-degree v6 engines were roller starting with the 3.3, don't know about the 3.0 Mitsu or the Chrysler 2.2/2.5 four-bangers, I never really developed an interest in them.
 
The Ford 4.9l/300 straight six had flat tappet cams right up to 1996, last year of it. Having one of these, much research here is done to help keep it running. Chevron Delo 5w-40 has given good results. It didn't like Rotella for whatever reason.
 
The issue I have is that ZDDP is not particularly harmful to emission controls, even at at an ideal 1200PPM. So, if one is operating a non roller cam engine and desires a long engine life, why not use a product known to work? There is no replacement for ZDDP, all sorts of things have been tried, nothing does the same job. There really is a reason modern engines are designed differently.
 
That's true, but you have to look at the basic cam and lifter situation too. Some engines have no, or very little, side load on the lifter - so stalling (no spinning) is reduced. Some engines like the BBC do have side load and ar known to have off-center lifter bores. Add GM's somewhat inferior cam lobe treatments (hardness, phosphorus, nitriding, etc.) and the fact that they have been also having lifter face issues and you can have a bad valve train with the best oil ...

To my personal knowledge, and only talking about engines I have wrenched on, I have never seen a Ford eat a cam in a 302 or a 351 with OEM lifters and valve springs. Ditto a Mopar. I have seen a fair number of roached GM engines with all OEM parts.

My sample size is not huge, maybe 50 engines, but I have discussed this with many other builders along the way. They experience similar results. I'm not knocking GM. Stuff happens. But oil will not save an engine when all the little tolerances add up to miss alignment or off-center running.

Many of you know I ran a poll at Chevelles.com among guys (mostly) that build some stout GM based cars. Some of these folks are in the 9's with steel bodies and roll-up glass. Any of these that run flat tappets are cam killers. Any with rollers that are running needle bearings are also looking at short life.

Look at what they run: http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/831521-what-oil-do-you-use.html As a group these folks are the real world and are a decent sample size to tell you want will keep an engine alive, if oil will make any difference ...

An OEM cam, lifters, and springs will live on 800 PPM and good base oils. 1,200 might be better as long as they don't skimp on base oils ... HDEO's can be found with 1,200 all day long. One I like to sneak in now and then is: https://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/batter...plus-50_ii.page

If you want to run a full PAO oil, JD Plus 50-II Synthetic is your choise
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"Plus 50 II Synthetic Engine Oil (0W40)

Synthetic Plus-50 II Premium Engine Oil (SAE 0W-40) has been designed to provide advanced lubricant performance in modern engines to meet the requirements of EPA regulations. SAE 0W-40 Plus-50 II is a full synthetic PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) based oil to provide excellent performance.
"

Of course if you could find a stash of pre Plus 50-II 15W-40 (plain old Plus 50) you would have a ZDDP level between 1,000 and 2,400 PPM - average around 1,500 PPM for all the ones I have seen. That is some good stuff there
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