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Another Zddp or lack off thread #4529082
09/29/17 07:04 AM
09/29/17 07:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 597
Nebraska
Duffyjr Offline OP
Duffyjr  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 597
Nebraska
I researched this and figure I have read most of what's on the internet about whether a stock flat tappet engine needs higher zddp levels or not and I'm still not convinced either way by what I've read. But my gut tells me no they don't just based on all the old gm trucks I see around still running.

But today my question is if I had to pick a SN rated oil and was worried about this what would be a good oil to use. If you can explain what's in your pick that would give better protection that would be nice.

To help with your pick I have about 15k on a new TBI crate engine and I prefer to stick with 10w30 but if you can convince me other wise I'm open on that. I also want one I can use year round. I don't think it gets cold enough for that long of periods to go to a 5w30 plus I'm thinking of going to yearly OCI's.


89 GMC Sierra T5 10w30/Wix
08 Lucerne CX NAPA Blend 5w30/Napa Gold
18 Toro Super Recycler T5 10w30
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529100
09/29/17 07:36 AM
09/29/17 07:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,415
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,415
NY
Did you ever consider tweaking your favorite oil with a ZDDP additive? Rislone and Red Line make them.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529102
09/29/17 07:38 AM
09/29/17 07:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,852
Onondaga County
Miller88 Offline
Miller88  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,852
Onondaga County
If you have 15K on it, it should be work hardened already. And the cam, I'm assuming, isn't one of the 70s ones that would wipe lobes. You're good!


18 Forester 2.5I 6M
00 Jeep Cherokee
01 Ford F-350 XL 4x4 5M
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529108
09/29/17 07:48 AM
09/29/17 07:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
FermeLaPorte Offline
FermeLaPorte  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
If I was you, I would use 5w30 HM and not 15w30. Seems like it's not doing well on that engine.


Always Mobil 1
2014 1.6L Nissan Versa Sedan, 5 spd, 5k OCI.
2011 3.5L Chevrolet Impala, Automatic, 5k OCI.
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: FermeLaPorte] #4529147
09/29/17 08:22 AM
09/29/17 08:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,578
wv
krismoriah72 Offline
krismoriah72  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,578
wv
Rotella 10w30 is loaded with good stuff.

T5 https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4377748/Shell_Rotella_T5_10W-30_***API

T4 https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4304492/Rotella_t4_10w30

Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529166
09/29/17 08:43 AM
09/29/17 08:43 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,180
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,180
N.H, U.S.A.
I thought those motors did NOT have flat tappet cams.

I though GM was running rollers with fast bleed-down (RHODES STYLE) when they went to a 5w30 spec.


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529167
09/29/17 08:44 AM
09/29/17 08:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,957
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,957
Cincinnati, OH, USA
If you're using the VR1 synthetic 10W30, rated SL, it would be hard to beat. Why do you want to switch to SN? AN old school flat tappet engine doesn't need it, and hopefully you're not having oil burning issues already?


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: bullwinkle] #4529212
09/29/17 09:34 AM
09/29/17 09:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 597
Nebraska
Duffyjr Offline OP
Duffyjr  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 597
Nebraska
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you're using the VR1 synthetic 10W30, rated SL, it would be hard to beat. Why do you want to switch to SN? AN old school flat tappet engine doesn't need it, and hopefully you're not having oil burning issues already?


Not using synthetic just the conventional. The reason I'm researching this is NAPA is the only place in town that stocks it and they don't do a very good job of keeping it in stock so I started buying it at Amazon Prime for $36 for six quarts but they jacked it up to $50 for six quarts which is a little high if you ask me and no sir it's not using any oil. I was just thinking if it doesn't really need the extra zddp I could find something cheaper but still wanted the best protection I could get.

I like the idea of running the T5 or T4 but I've read the 10w30 maybe to thick for the colder days we get around here. I've researched this in the past and we average about 5 days a year below zero with one or two in the minus teens but for the most part it stays above zero.


89 GMC Sierra T5 10w30/Wix
08 Lucerne CX NAPA Blend 5w30/Napa Gold
18 Toro Super Recycler T5 10w30
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529230
09/29/17 09:53 AM
09/29/17 09:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
If you have OEM valve springs and a basically stock engine, you should be good at 800 PPM ZDDP. In that range, you have lots of options. PQIA is your friend here when trying to decide on oil with various additive packages.

If you have a Tractor Supply nearby, you can check out their Traveller and Mystic brands. They get good ratings.

If you can stand 15W for cold starts, which is good down to 0*F easily, you have many choices in HDEO. And John Deere Plus 50 is always a good stand by.

If it were my engine, I'd likely just run Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) and be happy with that. It's a very stout oil for off road heavy equipment and seems to do well in all I've tried it in.

I can't get VR-1 in Cali any more, so I went to Delo SD for built engines and have had no issues with flat tappets so far (two engines, SBF & SBC). It's my go-to oil for flat tappets now smile

Almost all flat tappet failures I have seen are related to lifters with to soft a face or wrong radious ground in. The lifter starts skidding and then the cam goes ... If you have a lifter issue, the oil will not save you. It's just the way it is ...

Last edited by BrocLuno; 09/29/17 09:57 AM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: ARCOgraphite] #4529244
09/29/17 10:06 AM
09/29/17 10:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,776
Texas
440Magnum Offline
440Magnum  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,776
Texas
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I thought those motors did NOT have flat tappet cams.

I though GM was running rollers with fast bleed-down (RHODES STYLE) when they went to a 5w30 spec.


The old Chevy 350 truck motor was the last American v8 to use flat tappets. They didn't switch on those until the mid to late 90s, Ford and Mopar had gone roller by the mid 1980s (Mopars were a mixed bag for a year or two with the 2-bbl 318s getting rollers and the 360 or 318 police-spec engines getting flat, not sure how Ford phased rollers in).

Rhodes-style bleed-down lifters from the factory? Never heard of an application like that, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

To the OPs point- whether a particular flat-tappet engine needs more ZDDP than ~800 PPM depends on a lot of things. If the cam has 10s of thousands of miles on it, there's less need for ZDDP. If the lift is low and the ramp rates are low... less need for ZDDP. The lighter the valve spring pressures, the less need for ZDDP. So a stock Jeep 4.0 with 100k on the clock doesn't need much ZDDP. Neither does an old Chevy 350 or Mopar 318 with their little bitty cams. But a Mopar with an MP 509, Comp XE or larger, or Hughes fast-lift cam, true 5:1 rockers, and Hemi-style dual valve springs... that's going to need 1200 PPM until its very well broken-in, probably a good idea to just always use an HDEO or vintage engine type high-ZDDP oil.


'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529255
09/29/17 10:14 AM
09/29/17 10:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,839
Kalifornia Kollective
Ford phased in their rollers for Cars first, SUVs second, and Trucks last (somewhere in the mid-1990's). Chrysler was a mixed bag. And GM had some cam/lifter issues with their last flat tappets - mostly lifters ...

As stated, If you have bumped the spring pressures, or gone to steep ramp cam, the oils needed will be different. But your cam card should have told you what to run ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529287
09/29/17 10:41 AM
09/29/17 10:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,185
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,185
Campbellsville, KY
As stated by others, GM's V-8's weren't roller across the board until the Vortec days beginning in '96. Some higher perf. cars, etc. were, but
trucks stayed flat-tappet (small and big block) until they switched from throttle
body to port fuel injection.

And, as others have said, any oil of decent quality should protect a stock cam in any of these engines just fine. I've seen too many flat-tappet 350's and 454's with 175K to 350K+ (in use well up into the days of SM and SN) in hard working trucks that never had a second thought paid to ZDDP in the oil. I run Schaeffer's 7000 10w30 in my '85 454 - not on the low end of the zinc content scale (still SN, though) and a brand that gets generally strong reviews on all their products. My second choice in such engines would probably be Maxlife 10w30, and the HM oil should have a little extra zinc for good measure. 15w is okay down to zero, but a small
block with healthy oil pressure and moderate consumption should live just as long a life on a quality 10w. However, I'm too squeamish to put a 5w30 in any of my old pushrod V8's; 10/30 and 10/40 is my happy place.


I like Chevy and Valvoline.

'13 Cruze, 1.4T, 113K
'85 GMC C3500, 454, 130K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 169K
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529379
09/29/17 12:26 PM
09/29/17 12:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,514
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
andyd  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,514
Marshfield , MA
I started a 528e @-17F It had 10w40 dino in it. Did it crank a bit slow? Yes, and I let it warm up a minute or 2. Bottom line is that it started, and drove me home. grin2


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: Duffyjr] #4529867
09/29/17 09:54 PM
09/29/17 09:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
You probably don't need the extra ZDDP, but I'm in the camp that it doesn't hurt to have it - given you are not burning lots of oil. I like a bit of extra zinc, it's an anti-wear agent that protects the metal and an antioxidant that protects the oil from degrading.

Shell Rotella T5 10W-30 API CK-4, recent BITOG VOA gave ~ 1170 ppm zinc and ~ 200 ppm Boron with a Ca detergent package of ~ 2200 ppm. It's "just" CK-4 (no SN), but this oil is also rated ACEA E9 which is a high quality European heavy duty (diesel) oil spec., but similar in many ways to their A3/B4 dual rated (Petrol/Gas and light duty diesel) spec.

Anyway I personally would have no problems using a E9 oil in an average petrol/gas engine. The E6 and E9 oils both require a Sulphated Ash level of 1.0 % or less, which places it squarely in PCMO territory.

Ref:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4378040/


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Another Zddp or lack off thread [Re: BrocLuno] #4530429
09/30/17 04:35 PM
09/30/17 04:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 597
Nebraska
Duffyjr Offline OP
Duffyjr  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 597
Nebraska
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
If you have OEM valve springs and a basically stock engine, you should be good at 800 PPM ZDDP. In that range, you have lots of options. PQIA is your friend here when trying to decide on oil with various additive packages.


Not many 10w30 oils listed at PQIA and even less when you figure what I can find locally but it looks like PYB 10w30 would be good choice and it's not that much lower than what was posted in the VOA section for VR1 10w30 in that blind study as far as zink and phosphorus. All three labs reported it being way lower than what is listed on the Valvoline site so there must be something to it unless all three labs are wrong.

Valvoline website.
Zn 1400
P 1300

VOA from blind study, Blackstone, Polaris and Wix labs.
Zn 1040, 1082, 982
P 910, 958, 898

PYB from PQIA
Zn 894
P 770

Thanks all for your time.


89 GMC Sierra T5 10w30/Wix
08 Lucerne CX NAPA Blend 5w30/Napa Gold
18 Toro Super Recycler T5 10w30
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