Euro Cars Used to be Very Reliable

[antonmnster]

My 07 BMW 335i has 186,000 miles. My 02 530i has 207,000. My 93 325is had 245,000 when I sold it.

A friend of mine has a 98 M3 that just hit 380,000 with a drivetrain that hasn't been touched!

These cars just need to be listened to, have things dealt with before they turn into much larger cascade failures. Although the 335 does like to have its injectors replaced...

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: antonmnster
My 07 BMW 335i has 186,000 miles. My 02 530i has 207,000. My 93 325is had 245,000 when I sold it.

A friend of mine has a 98 M3 that just hit 380,000 with a drivetrain that hasn't been touched!

These cars just need to be listened to, have things dealt with before they turn into much larger cascade failures. Although the 335 does like to have its injectors replaced...
I don't think anyone doubts they can go the distance, of course they can pack on some major miles. The issue is sometimes they cost ungodly amounts of money to keep them going.

My previous European car had 176k miles when I sold it. I put thousands of dollars into it trying to keep it up to par. But once the transmission was almost toast, the dual mass flywheel was going bad, the camshaft was worn out, the turbo was likely going to need to be replaced soon due to a bad sensor, airbag lights coming on, it was time to get rid of it.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
My 07 BMW 335i has 186,000 miles. My 02 530i has 207,000. My 93 325is had 245,000 when I sold it.

A friend of mine has a 98 M3 that just hit 380,000 with a drivetrain that hasn't been touched!

These cars just need to be listened to, have things dealt with before they turn into much larger cascade failures. Although the 335 does like to have its injectors replaced...
I don't think anyone doubts they can go the distance, of course they can pack on some major miles. The issue is sometimes they cost ungodly amounts of money to keep them going.

My previous European car had 176k miles when I sold it. I put thousands of dollars into it trying to keep it up to par. But once the transmission was almost toast, the dual mass flywheel was going bad, the camshaft was worn out, the turbo was likely going to need to be replaced soon due to a bad sensor, airbag lights coming on, it was time to get rid of it.


I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?

Vehicular hypochondria? I think so too.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Here in the UK, WarrantyDirect publish a Reliability Index for all car manufacturers based on warranty repairs that pass through their books.

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer/relIndex

The top six places go to Japanese cars with little Daihatsu taking the number one position (owned a Daihatsu Sirion for seven years. Brilliant car!). Suzuki (who made my current car) take the number three spot (hoorah!).

Some Euro cars are okay but some are appalling (eg Audi, Porsche, Maserati).




I see that Mazda is number five.

Looking at the rankings closely its remarkable how many brands stay in the "Good" part of the scale. You have to go all the way down to number 28 which is Jeep before getting into a lower class.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad


I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?
I've said it before on here that my Jeep is turning into my VW.

But all this work has come nowhere even close to the cost of maintaining that VW.

The Jeep was my grandfather's and I'll never get rid of it. The VW TDI was supposed to be a cheap commuter, but it would have been cheaper to buy a brand new car, actually I could have leased a new one for a couple years for cheaper than that VW cost to maintain.

The VW's first year of maintenance it needed was close to $5k, then the transmission was failing and it potentially needed a turbo. So 2 years of work on it equaled the entire cost of my 2015 Sonata OTD.

The Jeep also doesn't have a failing engine or transmission. I've just been trying to not get it to run 220 degrees, I've accepted the fact that that's what it runs and I'll just drive it that way.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?
I've said it before on here that my Jeep is turning into my VW.

But all this work has come nowhere even close to the cost of maintaining that VW.

The Jeep was my grandfather's and I'll never get rid of it. The VW TDI was supposed to be a cheap commuter, but it would have been cheaper to buy a brand new car, actually I could have leased a new one for a couple years for cheaper than that VW cost to maintain.

The VW's first year of maintenance it needed was close to $5k, then the transmission was failing and it potentially needed a turbo. So 2 years of work on it equaled the entire cost of my 2015 Sonata OTD.

The Jeep also doesn't have a failing engine or transmission. I've just been trying to not get it to run 220 degrees, I've accepted the fact that that's what it runs and I'll just drive it that way.


I wonder if Jeeps of that vintage just run on the hot side by nature of the beast? My gf's Delta 88 always ran a solid and steady 220F and that was with a brand new radiator,oem thermostat,etc. but that car was indestructible!

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?
I've said it before on here that my Jeep is turning into my VW.

But all this work has come nowhere even close to the cost of maintaining that VW.

The Jeep was my grandfather's and I'll never get rid of it. The VW TDI was supposed to be a cheap commuter, but it would have been cheaper to buy a brand new car, actually I could have leased a new one for a couple years for cheaper than that VW cost to maintain.

The VW's first year of maintenance it needed was close to $5k, then the transmission was failing and it potentially needed a turbo. So 2 years of work on it equaled the entire cost of my 2015 Sonata OTD.

The Jeep also doesn't have a failing engine or transmission. I've just been trying to not get it to run 220 degrees, I've accepted the fact that that's what it runs and I'll just drive it that way.


That's insane.

With that said, you have to know EXACTLY what you are buying with European cars, especially used. Maintenance history, potential problems, etc. Newer TDis are not what the old ones were. Newer diesels have jumped the shark as far as reliability. VW doesn't have the strongest transmissions to begin with, and a TDi will send more torque through that already failure-prone dual mass flywheel.

Some Euro cars are more reliable than others, even between the same platform. For example, if your VW was a 2.5L it probably would've had a few less problems.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm

I wonder if Jeeps of that vintage just run on the hot side by nature of the beast? My gf's Delta 88 always ran a solid and steady 220F and that was with a brand new radiator,oem thermostat,etc. but that car was indestructible!

Not always. They will usually run hot if there is gunk in the cooling system. It sounds like there is remnants of gunk in the heater core, block, and cylinder head. It is really hard to get everything completely clean.

The cooling systems were marginal on these to begin with, and any inefficiency in the system will cause them to run hot.

The 2000-2001s have cat converters on the exhaust manifold, making engine bay temps even higher. With a CSF 3 row radiator, and otherwise stock cooling system, my Jeep runs 200-212* all day long even on the few 100 degree days we get.

Also not sure if yours has this, but consider upgrading the electric fan to the newer 97-01 style that has more blades and can move more air. The 87-96 had a 5 or 6 blade fan that is not as efficient. The 97-01 had a better one that drops right in. Some 96s had it depending on when they were built, so it might be worth checking.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?
I've said it before on here that my Jeep is turning into my VW.

But all this work has come nowhere even close to the cost of maintaining that VW.

The Jeep was my grandfather's and I'll never get rid of it. The VW TDI was supposed to be a cheap commuter, but it would have been cheaper to buy a brand new car, actually I could have leased a new one for a couple years for cheaper than that VW cost to maintain.

The VW's first year of maintenance it needed was close to $5k, then the transmission was failing and it potentially needed a turbo. So 2 years of work on it equaled the entire cost of my 2015 Sonata OTD.

The Jeep also doesn't have a failing engine or transmission. I've just been trying to not get it to run 220 degrees, I've accepted the fact that that's what it runs and I'll just drive it that way.


That's insane.

With that said, you have to know EXACTLY what you are buying with European cars, especially used. Maintenance history, potential problems, etc. Newer TDis are not what the old ones were. Newer diesels have jumped the shark as far as reliability. VW doesn't have the strongest transmissions to begin with, and a TDi will send more torque through that already failure-prone dual mass flywheel.

Some Euro cars are more reliable than others, even between the same platform. For example, if your VW was a 2.5L it probably would've had a few less problems.
It was actually my aunt's car that she bought new, and she gave it to me. It was meticulously dealer maintained before that.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?
I've said it before on here that my Jeep is turning into my VW.

But all this work has come nowhere even close to the cost of maintaining that VW.

The Jeep was my grandfather's and I'll never get rid of it. The VW TDI was supposed to be a cheap commuter, but it would have been cheaper to buy a brand new car, actually I could have leased a new one for a couple years for cheaper than that VW cost to maintain.

The VW's first year of maintenance it needed was close to $5k, then the transmission was failing and it potentially needed a turbo. So 2 years of work on it equaled the entire cost of my 2015 Sonata OTD.

The Jeep also doesn't have a failing engine or transmission. I've just been trying to not get it to run 220 degrees, I've accepted the fact that that's what it runs and I'll just drive it that way.


I wonder if Jeeps of that vintage just run on the hot side by nature of the beast? My gf's Delta 88 always ran a solid and steady 220F and that was with a brand new radiator,oem thermostat,etc. but that car was indestructible!

No they do not. My dad has a 1987 Comanche (Cherokee with a truck bed) that runs.. normal. It has factory components though too.

I can't help but wonder if the over-heating is from the aftermarket single row radiator as opposed to the OE 2 row.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


I can't help but notice your Jeep is having the same track record as your VW.

Will your VW mindset ever rub off onto Jeep?
I've said it before on here that my Jeep is turning into my VW.

But all this work has come nowhere even close to the cost of maintaining that VW.

The Jeep was my grandfather's and I'll never get rid of it. The VW TDI was supposed to be a cheap commuter, but it would have been cheaper to buy a brand new car, actually I could have leased a new one for a couple years for cheaper than that VW cost to maintain.

The VW's first year of maintenance it needed was close to $5k, then the transmission was failing and it potentially needed a turbo. So 2 years of work on it equaled the entire cost of my 2015 Sonata OTD.

The Jeep also doesn't have a failing engine or transmission. I've just been trying to not get it to run 220 degrees, I've accepted the fact that that's what it runs and I'll just drive it that way.


I wonder if Jeeps of that vintage just run on the hot side by nature of the beast? My gf's Delta 88 always ran a solid and steady 220F and that was with a brand new radiator,oem thermostat,etc. but that car was indestructible!

No they do not. My dad has a 1987 Comanche (Cherokee with a truck bed) that runs.. normal. It has factory components though too.

I can't help but wonder if the over-heating is from the aftermarket single row radiator as opposed to the OE 2 row.

I drove it yesterday, was only 93 degrees out. 195 on the highway and 210 at idle. I'm ok with that for now.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

I've only had one Euro vehicle and that's my LR3. Bought it when it was 2 years old with 30k on it. Now I have 160k on it. It's been quirkier than my Mopars for sure, but it's never stranded me and the drivetrain seems stout. Better than the myriad of GMs I've had. Looks new underneath, great rust proofing. It's all the random stuff that add up. Right now it needs a new DTML pump and a clock spring. I've spend about $1000-2000 per year on repairs on it, but it's way less expensive than a car payment and we'd only replace it with a 2 year old or newer Range Rover and that's not in the cards now. Drives great and is easily the best road trip vehicle I've ever had. Life is too short to drive something boring or that I don't like.

 

[dlundblad]

I've always liked the look of those. I fell they need a more aggressive tire, but I feel that way with just about any 4x4. A nice stout AT tire with the stock wheels would look slick.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
Were French or Italian cars EVER worth buying?!??


I have been fortunate to have owned a few Citroen cars over the years including the SM, they were phenomenal cars, well built and easy enough to work on. The big CX was and remains the most conformable car I ever owned in fact RR, MB, Audi and others had to use their hydropneumatic suspension under license to compete with the ride.
The seats were a masterpiece, comfortable and firm with every bolster adjustable for long trips, the steering was self centering and at high speeds transfered the power normally used for assist at low speeds to the boat anchor brakes. These cars had road following headlights and FWD before the Japanese even thought about them.

Peugeot has legendary reliability the 605 and 607 turbo diesels were super reliable and quite fast for their size while being fuel efficient, all these cars rarely needed much more than regular oil/fluid changes, plugs/wiper blades/bulbs and filters. Granted they are quirky cars but their quirks are more loved than disliked.
Italian cars can be very good but are prone to rust and can be more problematic than most but the driving experience of for example a good running Alfa is hard to beat.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
I've only had one Euro vehicle and that's my LR3. Bought it when it was 2 years old with 30k on it. Now I have 160k on it. It's been quirkier than my Mopars for sure, but it's never stranded me and the drivetrain seems stout. Better than the myriad of GMs I've had. Looks new underneath, great rust proofing. It's all the random stuff that add up. Right now it needs a new DTML pump and a clock spring. I've spend about $1000-2000 per year on repairs on it, but it's way less expensive than a car payment and we'd only replace it with a 2 year old or newer Range Rover and that's not in the cards now. Drives great and is easily the best road trip vehicle I've ever had. Life is too short to drive something boring or that I don't like.


I agree 100%. The cars I like are much less expensive to maintain than a new car loan/lease payment. Yes, life is much too short to drive a vehicle you despise.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I've always liked the look of those. I fell they need a more aggressive tire, but I feel that way with just about any 4x4. A nice stout AT tire with the stock wheels would look slick.


Thanks, yeah I thought the same and threw some stock sized Terras on mine.


I think the other thing that taints Euro vehicle's reliability image is I think a higher proportion of them get beat on and run on a budget. You have lots of people that buy them for performance, beat on them and don't do any maintenance. You have the two extremes, people that stretch their budget to even buy one and therefore don't maintain them and then those that have an endless supply of cash to maintain them...not much in the middle I think.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I've always liked the look of those. I fell they need a more aggressive tire, but I feel that way with just about any 4x4. A nice stout AT tire with the stock wheels would look slick.


Thanks, yeah I thought the same and threw some stock sized Terras on mine.


I think the other thing that taints Euro vehicle's reliability image is I think a higher proportion of them get beat on and run on a budget. You have lots of people that buy them for performance, beat on them and don't do any maintenance. You have the two extremes, people that stretch their budget to even buy one and therefore don't maintain them and then those that have an endless supply of cash to maintain them...not much in the middle I think.


Does that thing have LSD or lockers?

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Has some pretty sophisticated electronics, it can put all the torque to 1 wheel if needed. Works great. Some had rear lockers, but 99% didn't.

 

[Fuelman]

I have currently three Volvos, and have owned a total of four.
04 S80 AWD, currently 210K
04 S60 non turbo, Currently 185K
13 XC90 non turbo, Currently 98K
Formerly 06 S60 AWD, 165K when crashed.

They have performed very well for me over the years with no unusual problems , just normal wear and tear. I do swap fluids frequently. nice thing is that they do not get rusty in northern ny.