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#4528197 - 09/28/17 08:05 AM Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11199
Loc: PA
Saw the following in this Amsoil PDF:

Quote:
In recent years, API and ILSAC have reduced the ash content in engine oil to below 0.80% (max) by weight to meet API SM, ILSAC GF-4 specifications. Because all SAE xW-20 engine oils are required to have low ash, there is less tendency for carbon formation when they are burned in the combustion chamber.


I'd love for this to be true, but I haven't found evidence for it yet. For example, Infineum's summary of API and ILSAC specs makes no mention of sulfated ash for SM/GF-4, SN/GF-5, etc.

Was this statement an error on Amsoil's part, or am I missing something?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4528238 - 09/28/17 08:50 AM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Send a PM to Pablo.

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#4528268 - 09/28/17 09:19 AM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 10920
Loc: Idaho
I would wonder if Amsoil is hyping the new additive package reformulations they are purchasing.
_________________________
"Don't let your preconceived notions get in the way of facts."Geoff Metcalf"

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#4528290 - 09/28/17 09:58 AM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
Virtus_Probi Offline


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 3966
Loc: New England
I see that SN-RC directly specifies phosphorus and sulfur content...0.06-0.08% P and 0.5% max S for 0/5WXX.
Looks like there are similar limits for SM.
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 80500 miles
Last Change;
Valvoline Full Synthetic 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

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#4528363 - 09/28/17 11:19 AM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
m37charlie Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1359
Loc: Alaska
Unless the periodic table has changed, metal sulfates aren't "carbon". It appears Amsoil does not know what it is talking about.

Charlie
_________________________
05 Unimog U500/Unicat camper/Delvac 1 SHC ACEA E4/E5
09 BMW X5 35d/Delvac1 LE 5W30
88 Toyota OJ50LV OM314 motor D1 SHC
52 Dodge M37/Hercules diesel


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#4528381 - 09/28/17 11:50 AM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: Virtus_Probi]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11199
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I see that SN-RC directly specifies phosphorus and sulfur content...0.06-0.08% P and 0.5% max S for 0/5WXX.
Looks like there are similar limits for SM.

Sulfated ash is different from P and S, though they're all part of SAPS.

Thinking about it now, maybe whoever wrote that Amsoil doc made that same mistake. That'd be an awfully junior-grade mistake for an oil blender, but weirder stuff has happened....
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4528405 - 09/28/17 12:19 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
Virtus_Probi Offline


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 3966
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I see that SN-RC directly specifies phosphorus and sulfur content...0.06-0.08% P and 0.5% max S for 0/5WXX.
Looks like there are similar limits for SM.

Sulfated ash is different from P and S, though they're all part of SAPS.

Thinking about it now, maybe whoever wrote that Amsoil doc made that same mistake. That'd be an awfully junior-grade mistake for an oil blender, but weirder stuff has happened....


This has always confused me, seems like ash is often used as a synonym for SAPS and even XOM refers to the Sulfated Ash level of their oils when I'm pretty sure that they mean SAPS. Anyway, I thought info I gave might be germane to the discussion...like you, I don't see any specific reference to SAPS in SN or its cousins.
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 80500 miles
Last Change;
Valvoline Full Synthetic 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

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#4528441 - 09/28/17 12:58 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
For ASTM D6335, the total deposit formation was cut by 15 mg. from the SL to SM transition and the ASTM D7097 deposit formation value was cut almost in half.

From the 2009 Amsoil TSB linked above:

Quote:
CARBON DEPOSITS:
As noted in the Mazda bulletin, carbon formation in the RENESIS
engine can lead to engine misfire and knocking. Carbon
deposit formation may not be due to the type of base oil, but
can also be related to the ash content of the oil additive package.
Higher ash content oils can form more carbon deposits
than lower ash content oils.

In recent years, API and ILSAC have reduced the ash content
in engine oil to below 0.80% (max) by weight to meet API
SM, ILSAC GF-4 specifications. Because all SAE xW-20
engine oils are required to have low ash, there is less tendency
for carbon formation when they are burned in the combustion
chamber.


The TSB never said anything about Sulfated Ash.

Any type of ash deposit can mix with the oil and further contribute to oil degradation.


Edited by MolaKule (09/28/17 01:01 PM)

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#4528455 - 09/28/17 01:14 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
In Analytical Chemistry there are two forms of ash residue:

The residues after a sample is completely burnt consists mostly of metal oxides.

The ash remaining after incomplete combustion could contain any number of chemical species, including inorganic and organic.


Edited by MolaKule (09/28/17 01:17 PM)

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#4528464 - 09/28/17 01:23 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11199
Loc: PA
Thanks for the clarification and elaboration, MolaKule!

Are you suggesting that the deposit formation specs for SM/GF-4 provide a way to get to that 0.8% figure? When I found that Infineum doc, I just searched for the word "ash" and only found it in the diesel specs.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4528474 - 09/28/17 01:38 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA


Ash, in general chemistry terms, is the residue of complete or incomplete combustion and contains mostly solids.

Quote:
The ash remaining after incomplete combustion could contain any number of chemical species, including inorganic and organic.


This can include carbonaceous residues.

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#4528480 - 09/28/17 01:49 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Here was the kicker for me:

Quote:
Mazda Engineering did state that “not all synthetic oil is at a disadvantage in terms of carbon buildup, but use of untested, non-genuine oil should be avoided.”


I.e., use only XXX from the dealer; Hmmm, where have we heard that before?

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#4528485 - 09/28/17 01:56 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: d00df00d]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Thanks for the clarification and elaboration, MolaKule!

Are you suggesting that the deposit formation specs for SM/GF-4 provide a way to get to that 0.8% figure? When I found that Infineum doc, I just searched for the word "ash" and only found it in the diesel specs.


Amsoil, IMO, should have stated what the basis of their 0.8% figure was referenced to. I think (not sure) they meant relative to the transition from SJ/SL to SM GF-4, considering the time frame in which it was written. ???

Either way, I agree that it was poorly written and certainly not written by an analytical or physical chemist. shocked2


Edited by MolaKule (09/28/17 02:00 PM)

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#4528610 - 09/28/17 05:04 PM Re: Amsoil claim: ash limits for API SM / ILSAC GF-4 [Re: Virtus_Probi]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24574
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
This has always confused me, seems like ash is often used as a synonym for SAPS and even XOM refers to the Sulfated Ash level of their oils when I'm pretty sure that they mean SAPS. Anyway, I thought info I gave might be germane to the discussion...like you, I don't see any specific reference to SAPS in SN or its cousins.

SA has a specific definition and is a component of certain HDEO specifications. For instance, you'll find E7, E9 lubricants having SA of 1 or less, because the specification combination requires that.

SAPS levels seem to be treated a little differently as to what's called/marketed as high/mid/low when it comes to ACEA specs for passenger vehicles versus the commercial side. I don't think it's quantifiable in the same way as SA with simply one number.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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