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Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. #4528078
09/28/17 03:24 AM
09/28/17 03:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
Denmark, Europe
LucasDK Offline OP
LucasDK  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
Denmark, Europe
Hi,

I am trying to figure out the different applications for threadlocker (for instance Loctite 243, blue, medium) and anti seize (copper, aluminum, nickel etc).

General consensus:

1. Threadlocker is mainly used to prevent loosening of bolts/nuts, however it cannot withstand high temperatures. You can get high temperature versions up to 650 F ... but 650 F is almost cold.
2. Anti seize is mainly used to prevent galling, corrosion, seizure etc and is designed to withstand high temperatures - even up to 2300 F. The mechanism: Grease/oil is burnt off while metal flakes remain in the threads.

Question:

How do I tighten a bolt/nut in a vibrating environment (high risk of loosening) where operating temperatures reach let's say 1200 F?

If my only option is to use anti seize, why can't I use anti seize in cool/cold environments?

Lucas


Toyota Hiace 2,4D (2L engine)
Toyota Corolla AE92, (4A-FE engine)
Ford Model A (3,4 liter engine)
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528081
09/28/17 03:45 AM
09/28/17 03:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,789
Southeastern USA
FowVay Offline
FowVay  Offline

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,789
Southeastern USA
You don't give reference to your application but I do have experience with dealing with very hot installed fasteners and with ensuring their security.

Nickel anti-seize for the very high application (internal gas turbine), graphite for the less intense (external gas turbine), and safety wire for the critical retention.

If you're dealing with extreme temperatures where exotic alloys are required then a mechanical means of retention will be needed. if you can't safety wire then use a locking nut or insert with sufficient run-on torque to prevent backing out.

Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528082
09/28/17 03:49 AM
09/28/17 03:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,838
North Carolina
rooflessVW Online content
rooflessVW  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,838
North Carolina
Second the safety wire.

I imagine you're talking about a turbocharger housing. You can buy pre-drilled bolts or drill them your self if you have a press.


"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528135
09/28/17 06:15 AM
09/28/17 06:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 485
Reunion Island
Superflan Offline
Superflan  Offline

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 485
Reunion Island
Nord lock wedge nut?



‘01 Peugeot Partner 1.9 D, 5W40 A3/B4, 258000 Km, running on WVO
Wife's ‘01 Toyota RAV4 3-dr 2.0 VVTi, 5W40 A3/B4, 148000 Km
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528212
09/28/17 08:26 AM
09/28/17 08:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,862
NY, NY
NYEngineer Offline
NYEngineer  Offline

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,862
NY, NY
You can use anti seize at low temps just fine. I've done it a million times on marine applications.

Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: NYEngineer] #4528240
09/28/17 08:51 AM
09/28/17 08:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 808
Battle Creek, MI
SVTCobra Offline
SVTCobra  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 808
Battle Creek, MI
I've used the wedge nuts before - second that idea especially if it can't be safety wired.


Think twice, speak once.
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: NYEngineer] #4528260
09/28/17 09:12 AM
09/28/17 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
Denmark, Europe
LucasDK Offline OP
LucasDK  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
Denmark, Europe
Originally Posted By: NYEngineer
You can use anti seize at low temps just fine. I've done it a million times on marine applications.


Hi,

That was actually the answer I was looking for. But if it is true, why even thinking about stocking and using threadlocker at all???

Lucas


Toyota Hiace 2,4D (2L engine)
Toyota Corolla AE92, (4A-FE engine)
Ford Model A (3,4 liter engine)
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528314
09/28/17 10:15 AM
09/28/17 10:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,838
North Carolina
rooflessVW Online content
rooflessVW  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,838
North Carolina
Originally Posted By: LucasDK
Originally Posted By: NYEngineer
You can use anti seize at low temps just fine. I've done it a million times on marine applications.

Hi,

That was actually the answer I was looking for. But if it is true, why even thinking about stocking and using threadlocker at all???

Lucas

Because they're two totally different applications. Threadlocker is typically used on high vibration components or parts that rotate; on fasteners that you don't want removing themselves in operation.

Anti-seize is used to prevent against corrosion or to help ensure you can accurately and consistently torque a fastener.


"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: rooflessVW] #4528331
09/28/17 10:39 AM
09/28/17 10:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,788
Storrs, Connecticut
jeepman3071 Offline
jeepman3071  Offline

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,788
Storrs, Connecticut
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: LucasDK
Originally Posted By: NYEngineer
You can use anti seize at low temps just fine. I've done it a million times on marine applications.

Hi,

That was actually the answer I was looking for. But if it is true, why even thinking about stocking and using threadlocker at all???

Lucas

Because they're two totally different applications. Threadlocker is typically used on high vibration components or parts that rotate; on fasteners that you don't want removing themselves in operation.

Anti-seize is used to prevent against corrosion or to help ensure you can accurately and consistently torque a fastener.



This.

They each have completely different purposes as their names imply. Threadlocker keeps things snug and tight so they do not come loose. Anti-seize keeps things from getting stuck and never coming off.


2000 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L (181k) - Pennzoil 10w30, Napa Gold 1516, Magnefine trans filter
2009 BMW 328i (38k) - Castrol Edge Euro 0w40, MANN HU816X
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528366
09/28/17 11:23 AM
09/28/17 11:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,074
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
andyd  Offline

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,074
Marshfield , MA
Heh heh, Toothed washers are the bomb. I also use a sharp punch to booger up the threads at the nut /bolt juncture. Doesn't take much, and reforms as soon as you take a turn on the nut.


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528974
09/29/17 01:23 AM
09/29/17 01:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: LucasDK
Hi,

That was actually the answer I was looking for. But if it is true, why even thinking about stocking and using threadlocker at all???

Lucas


I like to use threadlocker on low torque applications when dealing with gaskets that are set to 89 inch pounds. Applications with gaskets are kind of critical. On larger bolts and especially the bolts that are in the vicinity of the exhaust manifold , I like to use anti-seize.

Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: Merkava_4] #4528988
09/29/17 02:57 AM
09/29/17 02:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
Denmark, Europe
LucasDK Offline OP
LucasDK  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 77
Denmark, Europe
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4


I like to use threadlocker on low torque applications when dealing with gaskets that are set to 89 inch pounds. Applications with gaskets are kind of critical. On larger bolts and especially the bolts that are in the vicinity of the exhaust manifold , I like to use anti-seize.


So what you are saying:

In applications where you CAN rely on the clamping force of the bolt (only metallic parts in contact), you would recommend anti seize.
In applications where you cannot fully trust the parts to be clamped and where delicate parts might be squeezed, you recommend threadlocker (where you cannot reach the true clamping force)?


Toyota Hiace 2,4D (2L engine)
Toyota Corolla AE92, (4A-FE engine)
Ford Model A (3,4 liter engine)
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4528998
09/29/17 03:51 AM
09/29/17 03:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,838
North Carolina
rooflessVW Online content
rooflessVW  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,838
North Carolina
The applications for both thread locker and anti-seize are right there in the names.

Thread locker makes it difficult for bolts to come loose, basically glueing the fastener in place and preventing rotation.

Anti seize makes it easier for bolts to come out later in high heat, dissimilar metal, or corrosion-prone applications. Alternatively, it is used to ensure accurate application of torque when tightening specific critical fasteners. In these cases the fastener will usually have a positive locking mechanism like a cotter pin, nylon insert self-locking nut, or a deformed metal self-locking nut.

In both cases, I recommend their use only when specifically called for by the relevant tech data.


"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4529016
09/29/17 04:50 AM
09/29/17 04:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,000
N.Ohio
Lubener Offline
Lubener  Offline

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,000
N.Ohio
I wouldn't use anti seize in a high vibration environment. Lightly oil and torque to specs.


The "thinking" man's friend.
Re: Threadlocker vs anti seize at high temps. [Re: LucasDK] #4531134
10/01/17 12:43 PM
10/01/17 12:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: LucasDK
So what you are saying:

In applications where you CAN rely on the clamping force of the bolt (only metallic parts in contact), you would recommend anti seize.
In applications where you cannot fully trust the parts to be clamped and where delicate parts might be squeezed, you recommend threadlocker (where you cannot reach the true clamping force)?


That's pretty much it yes. The main thing is to avoid assembling with dry threads whenever possible.

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