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Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis #4527916
09/27/17 08:24 PM
09/27/17 08:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
Synthesis (the chemical recipe for making this synthetic substance) of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) consists of two stages.

1) phosphorus pentasulfide (P2S5) is reacted with an alcohol (usually isooctyl and or isopropyl)) to give dialkyldithiophosphoric acid, or DDP acid.
2) the acid is then neutralized by zinc oxide. Hence, ZDDP.

The resulting product is then heated to drive off any H2O and is filtered.

By changing reaction conditions such as rate of stirring, reaction pressure, neutralizing process, the order of addition of starting materials, and the types and amounts of alcohol, P2S5 and ZnO, various flavors of ZDDP can be produced.


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: MolaKule] #4527942
09/27/17 09:02 PM
09/27/17 09:02 PM
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SR5 Offline
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Thanks MolaKule.

ZDDP seems to be a fairly useful oil add, it's an anti-wear agent to protect the metal, an antioxidant to protect the oil, and now it's found to strongly quench LSPI. Sure the Phos has exhaust cat poisoning issues.

With GF-5 oils you see 650 to 800 ppm Phos levels, while with Euro grade oils you often see 1000 ppm Phos levels and with HDEO maybe 1100 to 1200 ppm Phos (+100 ppm for the zinc levels).

If a new set of PCMO oil specs were realeased that had only performance levels to achieve, not chemical limits, what Phos & zinc level would you formulate around ? At least as a starting point before you tested and refined your blend.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: SR5] #4528018
09/27/17 11:16 PM
09/27/17 11:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
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Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: SR5
Thanks MolaKule.


...If a new set of PCMO oil specs were realeased that had only performance levels to achieve, not chemical limits, what Phos & zinc level would you formulate around ? At least as a starting point before you tested and refined your blend.



If cost were not so much an issue, I would use a two-tier AW system consisting of
a ZDDP treatment level yielding 350ppm phos and 400ppm of zinc, with an AW ester.

I have an experimental oil I developed some time ago with 300ppm phos and 350ppm of zinc with that special AW ester and the results showed very low wear in three test engines. When the cost of that special AW ester comes down, I think the formulation will be more marketable.


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: MolaKule] #4528083
09/28/17 03:51 AM
09/28/17 03:51 AM
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SR5 Offline
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Wow !! ... How interesting.

Could you tell us any more about the anti-wear ester. Low or High molecular weight ? Polar or non-Polar ?

Only if you are allowed to speak about it.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: MolaKule] #4528225
09/28/17 08:42 AM
09/28/17 08:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,990
MN
oil_film_movies Online content
oil_film_movies  Online Content
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MN
MolaKule is likely talking about http://www.hyperlube.com/c3/zinc-replacement-additive-c7.html types of polymer esters.
Ketjenlube too. http://vento.com.vn/docs/en/Surfactants/Lubricant%20additive/Lubricant%20Additive.pdf
Fuchs oil in Germany makes zddp-free (zero) oils, they might be using polymer esters.

Last edited by oil_film_movies; 09/28/17 08:45 AM.
Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: oil_film_movies] #4528598
09/28/17 04:30 PM
09/28/17 04:30 PM
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SR5 Offline
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Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
MolaKule is likely talking about http://www.hyperlube.com/c3/zinc-replacement-additive-c7.html types of polymer esters.
Ketjenlube too. http://vento.com.vn/docs/en/Surfactants/Lubricant%20additive/Lubricant%20Additive.pdf
Fuchs oil in Germany makes zddp-free (zero) oils, they might be using polymer esters.


Thanks mate, I'll have a read.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: oil_film_movies] #4529535
09/29/17 04:12 PM
09/29/17 04:12 PM
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Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
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Iowegia - USA

AkzoNobel is but one of three worldwide suppliers of polymer esters.


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: MolaKule] #4533641
10/04/17 10:18 AM
10/04/17 10:18 AM
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bigj_16 Offline
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Synthesis (the chemical recipe for making this synthetic substance) of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) consists of two stages.

1) phosphorus pentasulfide (P2S5) is reacted with an alcohol (usually isooctyl and or isopropyl)) to give dialkyldithiophosphoric acid, or DDP acid.
2) the acid is then neutralized by zinc oxide. Hence, ZDDP.

The resulting product is then heated to drive off any H2O and is filtered.

By changing reaction conditions such as rate of stirring, reaction pressure, neutralizing process, the order of addition of starting materials, and the types and amounts of alcohol, P2S5 and ZnO, various flavors of ZDDP can be produced.

What is the end game in producing the various flavors? Solubility in different oils?

Re: Simple Explanation of ZDDP Synthesis [Re: bigj_16] #4542565
10/13/17 08:12 PM
10/13/17 08:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: bigj_16

What is the end game in producing the various flavors? Solubility in different oils?


The ratios of zinc, phosphorus, and sulfur in ZDDP can be custom made.

The end game is that different flavors of the ZDDP ester can be used in different applications.


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.

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