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Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil #4520299
09/19/17 12:18 PM
09/19/17 12:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 12
TX
oesman Offline OP
oesman  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 12
TX
New here, still reading and searching the forum. Lots of excellent information here!

I have a car that I'm trying to find a new oil for (maybe). I've always just stuck with Mobile 1 Extended Performance in non-euro cars. Euro cars have always just had dealer service under plan/warranty as they've always been daily driven. However, the car in question is being built for future dedicated track use (NASA). Currently it does get street driven occasionally (less than 2,000mi/yr) and sees some non-racing track days.

2016 Mustang GT base w/ PP, coyote 5.0L, supercharged, ~12PSI, ~850 crank horsepower, no cats, ~5,200mi on engine
Fuel mix is Shell 93 AKI (60%) + Sunoco GT Plus Unleaded 104 AKI (40%) = ~97 AKI & ~14.0 stoich AFR due to ethanol content

Current Oil: Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w20

I'm not really concerned with OCIs for this particular vehicle. Current OCIs are more time / abuse based (i.e. after a track day), but around 1,500 miles on average. Will be getting UOA as of the change coming up now. This car gets driven fairly hard, but of course no pulls until the oil fully warms up and the pressure settles down. Here are the questions I have:

1. I was considering switching to a euro (higher ZDDP) or race oil. Any experience here? Because it's cat-less I'm not as worried about protecting emissions systems.

2. Also considering going with a thicker oil, i.e. 5w30 due to the excessive heat the engine produces and ambient heat of Houston. Any thoughts on this? Ideally it seems like running the thinnest oil possible should give best performance results, but obviously I do not want to sacrifice protection and 5w20 makes me a little concerned. A large portion of the year it's 90F+ outside, sometimes over 100F, and with the power output the amount of heat created under the hood is pretty crazy.

3. I was browsing some Euro oils and found this one: http://www.pentosin.net/specsheets/Pento_Super_Performance_III_5W-30.pdf Based on the approvals and the online tool at Lubrizol it seems like it should have good performance. What should I be looking for?

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520305
09/19/17 12:23 PM
09/19/17 12:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,697
West Michigan
buck91 Offline
buck91  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,697
West Michigan
I'd run a 5w50 (or there abouts) as is recommended in the Boss.


2011 F150 4x4 5.0L
1996 Mustang GT 5spd/ragtop
Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: buck91] #4520306
09/19/17 12:24 PM
09/19/17 12:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,115
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Online content
aquariuscsm  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,115
Dallas,Tx USA
Originally Posted By: buck91
I'd run a 5w50 (or there abouts) as is recommended in the Boss.


This.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520311
09/19/17 12:29 PM
09/19/17 12:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,263
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,263
PNW
What are your expected race durations and expected max oil temperatures? Are you adding any additional oil coolers?

If you expect max oil temperatures above 250 F I'd go thicker than 5W-30. Look at what Ford recommends for track use and in their GT500 and GT350, 5W-50.

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520312
09/19/17 12:29 PM
09/19/17 12:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline
bigj_16  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
I would go with Red line 10W-40 and do a UOA at 1k, and see what is going on.

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520355
09/19/17 01:12 PM
09/19/17 01:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,938
Connecticut
69GTX Offline
69GTX  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,938
Connecticut


----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs
Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: bigj_16] #4520362
09/19/17 01:17 PM
09/19/17 01:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I would go with Red line 10W-40 and do a UOA at 1k, and see what is going on.


^ This. Blowers can move the torque curve down, or they usually just add torque across the range. That means high cylinder pressure is possible at lower RPM. Lower RPM means more time on the big ends under load which puts extra squeeze on the oil film.

Add track time and certainly elevated sump temps, and I'd never run less than 40 grade for the hot side of the equation. Starting oil temps will never be less than say 40*F as this is a toy car and will not be parked outside at Chicago/O'Hare during a snow storm so nothing needed less than 15W which is good down to 0*F.

Your need is for film strength and shear resistance. Motul 300V or Redline will do both of these easily. No need for early changes unless lab says so. Do UOA every 500 miles until you get a handle on oil and any issues that may arise like fuel dilution. They both do as well there as any oil on the planet.

Run strong body oversized filter if it will fit around headers and other plumbing. Put big plate magnet on pan with epoxy. Run filter magnet. Run magnetic drain plug. Try to keep any Fe metals that do get tossed from embedding in piston skirts.

The bigger filter media area is to allow cold oil to circulate through the filter media w/o opening any by-pass. Don't worry about filter efficiency, in this case you want flow over catching every minuscule spec. If it's iron, the magnets will catch it. If it's bronze or aluminum it won't hurt much smile

Don't over-speed the motor if at all possible unless you have serious money in your rods and bolts ...

Last edited by BrocLuno; 09/19/17 01:21 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: aquariuscsm] #4520395
09/19/17 02:34 PM
09/19/17 02:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,679
Indiana
dlundblad Offline
dlundblad  Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,679
Indiana
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: buck91
I'd run a 5w50 (or there abouts) as is recommended in the Boss.


This.


x3

I saw some high performance Mustang a while back at the Auburn auction. Completely stripped to be a race car. Cage, single driver seat, tow hook etc.

5w50 on the oil cap.


03 Jeep WJ 4.0 202k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 186k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 153k Synpower 5w30 Supertech ST3980 (Ecore)

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520451
09/19/17 03:23 PM
09/19/17 03:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,975
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,975
Illinois
How has the EP 5-20 performed to date? I thought you engine would call for a 5-50 synthetic.


2007 Ford Fusion 235,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 60K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520463
09/19/17 03:37 PM
09/19/17 03:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 56
Outside U.S
Floydian Offline
Floydian  Offline
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 56
Outside U.S
I would go for Motul 300V 5w40 and change every 3000 miles, and a highly tuned engine needs race oil.

P.s: Don't plow into any crowds smile

Last edited by Floydian; 09/19/17 03:42 PM.
Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: bigj_16] #4520469
09/19/17 03:46 PM
09/19/17 03:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,097
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,097
Michigan
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I would go with Red line 10W-40 and do a UOA at 1k, and see what is going on.


This. Nix on the 5w50; too prone to shearing out of grade. AMSoil AMO or Z-Rod are also very resistant to shear, and have high ZDDP content.

Does your car have an oil cooler? Rejecting heat from an 850HP engine in Texas heat must be a challenge that the original cooling package in the car wasn't designed for.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520517
09/19/17 04:43 PM
09/19/17 04:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 696
Arizona
Kawiguy454 Offline
Kawiguy454  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 696
Arizona
Lower rpm bearing loads must be massive on that beast. 5W-anything just sounds like a bad idea but what do I know. Don't the corvette beasts like 15-50 in race trim? with a nice dose of zddp that would be my go to with that kind of power. good luck

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: A_Harman] #4520634
09/19/17 06:28 PM
09/19/17 06:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,263
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,263
PNW
Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Does your car have an oil cooler? Rejecting heat from an 850HP engine in Texas heat must be a challenge that the original cooling package in the car wasn't designed for.


The Coyote has a coolant to oil heat exchanger/cooler built into the base of the oil filter mount. Not sure how effective it is on highly modified engines though.

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: oesman] #4520686
09/19/17 07:26 PM
09/19/17 07:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 12
TX
oesman Offline OP
oesman  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 12
TX
Originally Posted By: buck91
I'd run a 5w50 (or there abouts) as is recommended in the Boss.


Thanks for the reply! I believe the engine in the Boss was a little bit different than mine, but 5w50 may be worth a shot. I was thinking 5w30 and 50 is a big jump, but I can always do a few early UOAs and also datalog my oil pressure at WOT when warm and see how it goes. It is stupid hot on the track.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
What are your expected race durations and expected max oil temperatures? Are you adding any additional oil coolers?

If you expect max oil temperatures above 250 F I'd go thicker than 5W-30. Look at what Ford recommends for track use and in their GT500 and GT350, 5W-50.


The expected duration is about 30 minutes for actual race. Out for longer (45-60 min) practicing, but won't be running as hard. I am working a cooler setup for the oil, trans and diff. Needs a little fabrication for fitment with the intercooler taking up so much room. Luckily I'm getting pretty good at TIG welding these days so I'm just a staycation away from fixing this =).

I would expect to see temps in excess of 250F for sure. Any specific oils you'd recommend for withstanding temperature without losing protection versus only bumping viscosity?

Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I would go with Red line 10W-40 and do a UOA at 1k, and see what is going on.


Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely consider it. Any concern with the cold viscosity at 10 and protection at startup? I love boost season in Houston when it gets "cold" out, however I doubt I'll ever drive in anything approaching 32F. Tires don't really work then anyway.

Originally Posted By: 69GTX


Will be reading, thank you!

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Blowers can move the torque curve down, or they usually just add torque across the range. That means high cylinder pressure is possible at lower RPM. Lower RPM means more time on the big ends under load which puts extra squeeze on the oil film.

Add track time and certainly elevated sump temps, and I'd never run less than 40 grade for the hot side of the equation. Starting oil temps will never be less than say 40*F as this is a toy car and will not be parked outside at Chicago/O'Hare during a snow storm so nothing needed less than 15W which is good down to 0*F.

Your need is for film strength and shear resistance. Motul 300V or Redline will do both of these easily. No need for early changes unless lab says so. Do UOA every 500 miles until you get a handle on oil and any issues that may arise like fuel dilution. They both do as well there as any oil on the planet.

Run strong body oversized filter if it will fit around headers and other plumbing. Put big plate magnet on pan with epoxy. Run filter magnet. Run magnetic drain plug. Try to keep any Fe metals that do get tossed from embedding in piston skirts.

The bigger filter media area is to allow cold oil to circulate through the filter media w/o opening any by-pass. Don't worry about filter efficiency, in this case you want flow over catching every minuscule spec. If it's iron, the magnets will catch it. If it's bronze or aluminum it won't hurt much smile

Don't over-speed the motor if at all possible unless you have serious money in your rods and bolts ...


The torque and horsepower are super linear with my setup, but obviously more than stock. I'm sure cylinder pressures are higher.

You are right the car will never see below 40F, tires don't work anyway then. So this further makes me feel better about others recommending higher cold viscosity oils. I'll definitely consider the Motul 300V and Redline oils. UOAs are pretty cheap and miles don't come fast, so it's not a big deal to do 500mi tests to get started. I will definitely do that.

Filter has decent clearance the way I remember it. I'll see if I can get a bigger filter. Currently using the standard size filter (Mobil 1 M1-212). I am working on fabricating coolers, totally agree with that and the magnetic drain plug. Good idea about adding a magnet to the pan. Could probably even fab something up to the pan instead of epoxy, I can weld aluminum.

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I saw some high performance Mustang a while back at the Auburn auction. Completely stripped to be a race car. Cage, single driver seat, tow hook etc.

5w50 on the oil cap.


Was that also a Boss 302 based one? They definitely had 5w50, but slightly diff engine build as I remember it.


Originally Posted By: tig1
How has the EP 5-20 performed to date? I thought you engine would call for a 5-50 synthetic.


It calls for 5w20 in the manual, even for track use it just says to change it after every outing.

Change your axle lubricant and friction
modifier after the initial (first) hour of
high-speed operation; thereafter
change the axle lubricant and friction
modifier every 12 hours (under these
conditions).

Change your transmission oil after each
event where your vehicle is subjected
to individual on-track sessions
exceeding 15 minutes.

Change your engine oil and filter after
each event.

So far I think it's performed well. Haven't seen any shavings on the magnetic plug. Only 5,200 miles in so far though and 3 oil changes. Haven't done any UOAs yet but about to with the current oil in it when I change it. Of course thats only once I figure out what I'm changing it to!


Originally Posted By: Floydian
I would go for Motul 300V 5w40 and change every 3000 miles, and a highly tuned engine needs race oil.

P.s: Don't plow into any crowds smile


Heard good things about Motul and will def consider it.

Hah, haven't hit any crowds yet. Stock the car is surprisingly sticky and easy to handle. Now with double the power it's easy to skid through 1st, 2nd and part of 3rd. Personally I just avoid doing burnouts with people in front of the car. I think it's mostly people being stupid, don't think it has much to do with the car's performance.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
This. Nix on the 5w50; too prone to shearing out of grade. AMSoil AMO or Z-Rod are also very resistant to shear, and have high ZDDP content.

Does your car have an oil cooler? Rejecting heat from an 850HP engine in Texas heat must be a challenge that the original cooling package in the car wasn't designed for.


Thanks! Trying to learn about shearing and 5w50 vs 10w50. Is there more shearing because of the wider range of viscosity from cold to hot causing the 5w50 to lose viscosity? Something different about the composition of the oil that causes the excess sheering problems?

I am working on the oil cooler (trans & diff too!) and yea I'm actually amazed how well the stock system keeps up. The Performance Pack does have an upgraded "Ford Racing" radiator from the factory, as well as a better diff and big (6 piston) front brakes. Few other things too.

Re: Supercharged Coyote Engine Oil [Re: ZeeOSix] #4520693
09/19/17 07:34 PM
09/19/17 07:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 12
TX
oesman Offline OP
oesman  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 12
TX
Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
Lower rpm bearing loads must be massive on that beast. 5W-anything just sounds like a bad idea but what do I know. Don't the corvette beasts like 15-50 in race trim? with a nice dose of zddp that would be my go to with that kind of power. good luck


Yea some others seem to be suggesting up to 15w would work. Not sure what the Corvettes ran, was that the TA series ones?

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
[quote=A_Harman]The Coyote has a coolant to oil heat exchanger/cooler built into the base of the oil filter mount. Not sure how effective it is on highly modified engines though.


I think it works fine for some drag racing and street driving, even with all the power. For track use the owners manual actually recommends aftermarket engine, trans and diff coolers be installed. Working on it now!

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