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Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? #4513864
09/12/17 04:16 AM
09/12/17 04:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1
TX
AdrienneOwens Offline OP
AdrienneOwens  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1
TX
Many Thanks grin

Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513865
09/12/17 04:19 AM
09/12/17 04:19 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,265
ROCHESTER, NY
Char Baby Offline
Char Baby  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,265
ROCHESTER, NY
Well, in the U.S. it is mainly for fuel economy reasons. As there are other countries that have the same vehicles/engines and they require different oils all together. Maybe those countries can't get our thinner oils.


"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic LX(17K)
Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513868
09/12/17 04:34 AM
09/12/17 04:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 767
UK
weasley Offline
weasley  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 767
UK
It's for efficiency, largely to drive CO2 emissions down. Given that these new engines are getting pretty power-dense, the challenge is to create oils that protect these more highly-strung engines, over longer oil drains, often with smaller oil charges, reduced additive content (for DPF and TWC protection) and lower viscosity.


2017 SEAT Leon 1.4 EcoTSI 150 FR Technology DSG
2018 Volvo XC60 D4
2011 KTM 990 SMT
Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513875
09/12/17 05:18 AM
09/12/17 05:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,430
Indiana
dlundblad Offline
dlundblad  Offline
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,430
Indiana
Fuel economy.

Basically, it's xw20 here and xw40 in other countries..


03 Jeep WJ 4.0 200k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 177k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 149k Rotella T5 10w30 Supertech ST3980

Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513880
09/12/17 05:32 AM
09/12/17 05:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,590
Taiwan
Ducked Online content
Ducked  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,590
Taiwan
In the US?

Driven by fatter people. Diet Coke demographics.

Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513886
09/12/17 05:43 AM
09/12/17 05:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
It's for fuel economy at the expense of engine life.

Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: Merkava_4] #4513895
09/12/17 05:53 AM
09/12/17 05:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 908
Monroe,CT
Bambam Offline
Bambam  Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 908
Monroe,CT
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
It's for fuel economy at the expense of engine life.


Engine life? Really?? Any data to back that up, I didn't think there was a longevity issue with engines, especially imports.


07 DMAX CC 4x4 ~ Synthetics in the driveline, Delo XLE 15w40 in the sump.
Dirt Bikes and a Harley for the summer!
Ski-Doo for the winter.



Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513899
09/12/17 06:01 AM
09/12/17 06:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,515
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,515
The Motor City
I actually read where Volvo did a wear study to compare the effects of the new thin oils versus 5W-30. I can't remember the exact number, but wear increased around 5%.

Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: Ducked] #4513904
09/12/17 06:17 AM
09/12/17 06:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,195
Midwest USA
LoneRanger Offline
LoneRanger  Offline
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,195
Midwest USA
Originally Posted By: Ducked
In the US?

Driven by fatter people. Diet Coke demographics.


Sounds facetious but is actually somewhat true. Just look at the Toyota Sienna's "evolution." It has gone from a relatively trim looking van at intro years ago, evolved from the Previa, to what we have today which looks a lot like a giant pregnant hamster. I mean, really, how much wider are they going to make it to continue accomodating the increasing physical width of their target demographic?

Pretty soon we'll have to widen traffic lanes to fit the ever increasing girth.



'09 Subaru Forester ...................(QS HM 5W30)
'16 Moto Guzzi Stelvio 1200 .....(ENI i-Ride PG 10W60)
Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: Kestas] #4513929
09/12/17 06:49 AM
09/12/17 06:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,256
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,256
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I actually read where Volvo did a wear study to compare the effects of the new thin oils versus 5W-30. I can't remember the exact number, but wear increased around 5%.

+1
It's in congruence with the laws of physics in thinner MOFT from thinner oils -> lubrication regimes shifting from right to left (in stribeck curve) -> potential increase in adhesion and abrasion wear ......
which are somehow mitigated by modern AW/EP additive package ...involving billions of R&D costs.
Besides corrosion wear constitutes more significant proportion in engine wear, not so much in gear train wear though.
We now have new normal in acceptable wear from Honda according to quotes from Shannow.
The study of lubrication/tribology fundamentals used to be based on minimum or zero wear.

Last edited by zeng; 09/12/17 06:52 AM.
Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: Kestas] #4513940
09/12/17 07:04 AM
09/12/17 07:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,825
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,825
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I actually read where Volvo did a wear study to compare the effects of the new thin oils versus 5W-30. I can't remember the exact number, but wear increased around 5%.


And when they (Volvo) specced a 0W20, they made the HTHS minimum 2.75 rather than 2.6

Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513966
09/12/17 07:30 AM
09/12/17 07:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
mightymousetech Offline
mightymousetech  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
It is completely about the CAFE regs. Car companies in the US must specify the oil that was used to get their CAFE fuel economy ratings as the spec, and only oil. This is why the same cars in the rest of the world provide a long list of acceptable viscosity, but only the thinnest is spec'd for the US and Canada.

Last edited by mightymousetech; 09/12/17 07:32 AM.

Mighty Mouse Tech
BMW Tech, Former Acura Tech
2010 Civic Si Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
2013 BMW 135i M Sport Edition Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513968
09/12/17 07:32 AM
09/12/17 07:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,415
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,415
Jupiter, Florida
I occasionally use Blackstone labs, but most often use Aviation labs (avlabs) for my wear metals check. These guys have the data, and occasionally publish something interesting.

As always, wear rates by brand of oil does not seem to vary much. Wear rates by type of oil is similarly inconclusive. However, one thing does tend to stand out, viscosity. With some engines, a higher than recommended viscosity can result in significantly lower wear rates.

My V8 and Ecoboost Ford trucks all experience significantly lower wear metals on a higher viscosity. In particular, Mobil 1 EP 10W-30 and especially M1, 5W-40 TDT reduce the wear rate per mile vs 5W-20 or 5W-30. Same goes for my Turbo S2000. Wear rates decrease significantly with M1, 15W-50. But at almost 450HP (crankshaft) 407RWHP, and no oil cooler, a robust oil is required.

And again, many engines with timing and/or balancer chains do far better with higher viscosity. Ask the GM warranty department about all the premature balancer chain failures.


People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: Ducked] #4513989
09/12/17 08:01 AM
09/12/17 08:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,816
Idaho
CT8 Online content
CT8  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,816
Idaho
Originally Posted By: Ducked
In the US?

Driven by fatter people. Diet Coke demographics.
grin grin grin


"Don't let your preconceived notions get in the way of facts."
Geoff Metcalf
Re: Why are newer cars using thinner motor oils? [Re: AdrienneOwens] #4513993
09/12/17 08:06 AM
09/12/17 08:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,094
Colorado
Kuato Offline
Kuato  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,094
Colorado
Sigh. This AGAIN?

popcorn


Thick vs Thin test: 15k / 43k miles complete
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