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Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. #4511618
09/09/17 02:02 PM
09/09/17 02:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 616
WA
SnowDrifter Offline OP
SnowDrifter  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 616
WA
I have a question that's been on my mind for a while now. You have these additives that rely on suspended particles to reduce wear numbers. But what I don't understand, is how do these fine particles, particularly in ceratec (since ceramic is pretty hard), not act as a microabrasive against soft parts like bearings?


2005 Tahoe - 135k
2003 Forester(the swagger wagon) - Rehomed
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Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4511689
09/09/17 03:51 PM
09/09/17 03:51 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,839
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline
SubieRubyRoo  Offline
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Posts: 1,839
The land of USA-made Subies!
I'm not extremely versed on liquid/solid interactions at the nanometer level, but when you're talking about something that measures in billionths of a meter, flowing through gaps that are thousandths of a meter, it sounds like driving a go-kart through an open jumbo jet hangar door.

Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4511992
09/10/17 12:25 AM
09/10/17 12:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 616
WA
SnowDrifter Offline OP
SnowDrifter  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 616
WA
While I see your, logic, I'm still not super clear on how it works.

I'll use ceratec to talk about. Particle size there is .4 microns, or .016 thousands of an inch. And the outline below indicates that lubricating film can thin down to .2 microns, thinner than the particle size of this stuff. How does it not grind into and abrade the bearings and other surfaces?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924424708004834


2005 Tahoe - 135k
2003 Forester(the swagger wagon) - Rehomed
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Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4512002
09/10/17 01:28 AM
09/10/17 01:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 220
NY
DdDd Offline
DdDd  Offline
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 220
NY
Indian phd student... Suddenly they are mechanical engineer extraordinaire? How many engines has he designed?

At .2 microns your oil film is essentially gone. Bearing clearances typically offer more cushion.

Moly works. This ceratec business is probably something like graphite. Which technically could be called a ceramic by the marketing dorks.

Looking at liquidity site and MSDS offers nothing. So marketing babble it is then...

Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4512189
09/10/17 09:24 AM
09/10/17 09:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,171
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,171
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: SnowDrifter
Particle size there is .4 microns, or .016 thousands of an inch.


.4 microns does NOT equal .016"... prob closer to .00016"?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4512204
09/10/17 09:43 AM
09/10/17 09:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
SHOZ Offline
SHOZ  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
Graphite, MoS2 and Boron Nitrate all have a similar molecular structure.


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Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: Linctex] #4512327
09/10/17 12:12 PM
09/10/17 12:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 616
WA
SnowDrifter Offline OP
SnowDrifter  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 616
WA
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SnowDrifter
Particle size there is .4 microns, or .016 thousands of an inch.


.4 microns does NOT equal .016"... prob closer to .00016"?


Thousandths sir grin


2005 Tahoe - 135k
2003 Forester(the swagger wagon) - Rehomed
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Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4512865
09/11/17 03:52 AM
09/11/17 03:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,590
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,590
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: SnowDrifter
I have a question that's been on my mind for a while now. You have these additives that rely on suspended particles to reduce wear numbers. But what I don't understand, is how do these fine particles, particularly in ceratec (since ceramic is pretty hard), not act as a microabrasive against soft parts like bearings?


Hexagonal boron nitride aka white graphite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_nitride


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: Linctex] #4513044
09/11/17 08:39 AM
09/11/17 08:39 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,100
SoCal
UG_Passat Offline
UG_Passat  Offline
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,100
SoCal
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: SnowDrifter
Particle size there is .4 microns, or .016 thousands of an inch.


.4 microns does NOT equal .016"... prob closer to .00016"?


1.574803149606299e-5 inches. you're off by an order of magnitude


2016 VW Tiguan|APR Stage 1|Neuspeed P-Flo|Osram CBI|Redline 5w30
Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4513117
09/11/17 10:11 AM
09/11/17 10:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
SHOZ Offline
SHOZ  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
Here's a nice conversion program for about anything.

https://joshmadison.com/convert-for-windows/


2008 Hyundai Accent 1.6L 5 sp manual hatchback
2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe Track 2L Turbo 6sp manual
Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4513200
09/11/17 11:27 AM
09/11/17 11:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,438
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
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Posts: 4,438
New England
Just remember 25.4 microns per mil.


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Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4513434
09/11/17 03:10 PM
09/11/17 03:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,582
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,582
Idaho
Help if any would be in the metal to metal contact otherwise it is of no advantage.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4513451
09/11/17 03:36 PM
09/11/17 03:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
SHOZ Offline
SHOZ  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
The nano particles fill the nano ridges and crevices on the surface and bond to the metal I believe.


2008 Hyundai Accent 1.6L 5 sp manual hatchback
2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe Track 2L Turbo 6sp manual
Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4514336
09/12/17 02:35 PM
09/12/17 02:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,361
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,361
Slovenia EU
I dont think that Moly bonds to anything.....its just...if its there when you need protection it will protect....


2008 Toyota Yaris 1ND-TV 1.4 D4-D Elf FullTech FE 5w30
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: Ceratec, MoS2, and other particle suspension. [Re: SnowDrifter] #4514339
09/12/17 02:42 PM
09/12/17 02:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
SHOZ Offline
SHOZ  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,951
Illinois
http://www.imoa.info/molybdenum-uses/molybdenum-chemistry-uses/lubricants.php



Molybdenum disulfide is used as a dry lubricant in, e.g. greases, dispersions, friction materials and bonded coatings.

Molybdenum-sulfur complexes may be used in suspension but more commonly dissolved in lubricating oils at concentrations of a few percent.

Molybdenum disulfide, MoS2, the most common natural form of molybdenum, is extracted from the ore and then purified for direct use in lubrication. Since molybdenum disulfide is of geothermal origin, it has the durability to withstand heat and pressure. This is particularly so if small amounts of sulfur are available to react with iron and provide a sulfide layer which is compatible with MoS2 in maintaining the lubricating film.

A number of unique properties distinguish molybdenum disulfide from other solid lubricants:

A low coefficient of friction (0.03-0.06) which, unlike graphite, is inherent and not a result of absorbed films or gases;
A strong affinity for metallic surfaces;
Film forming structure;
A yield strength as high as 3450 MPa (500 x 103 psi);
Stability in the presence of most solvents;
Effective lubricating properties from cryogenic temperatures to about 350oC in air (1200oC in inert or vacuum conditions).
Molybdenum disulfide will perform as a lubricant in vacuo where graphite fails.

A combination of molybdate and water soluble sulfides can provide both lubrication and corrosion inhibition in cutting fluids and metal forming materials. Oil soluble molybdenum-sulfur compounds, such as thiophosphates and thiocarbamates, provide engine protection against wear, oxidation and corrosion. Several commercial manufactures supply these additives to the lubrication industry.

Some molybdenum disulfide formulations are given in Table 1.


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