Penrite Racing on the Street?

[Hansfrax]

I'm about to do another oil change on my 350z HR, using Penrite Racing "10 Tenths" 5W30. This oil was previously used at the last change as well. Some research in the last few weeks has caused me some concern though.
I had used the same line of oil for years in my sportsbike, so I had initially thought it would be good for a sports car too.

How suitable are these oils for street use, albeit sporty street use with some DD use? The Premium and Racing oil from Penrite has a rather high ZDTP and Boron count going from other UOA's I've found, in fact the label claims 2200+ ppm. I would think that is combined or a total additives package though.

I first read that too high zinc levels have been found to spall the cam lobe faces, but also too little in a highly loaded valve train setup can spell disaster for lobe wear.
Following that is the lack of detergents that race oils can sometimes be formulated with. The label does mention street use FWIW.



The car has had the usual bolt on mods done, intake, decat (test pipes fitted), cat back dual exhaust. It's also had the heads worked on, cams replaced with Tomei 272°s on intake and exhaust, and headers fitted. Slightly lower temp thermostat is fitted and an oil cooler upfront too. Reworking the variable valve gubbins and a bit of dynamic time left it at 339.8whp.

Being that the 350z has more of an old school cam and tappet design, my initial thoughts are this oil might be a good fit, especially with the higher loadings from the much more aggressive cams. I'm keen for any input here though.

The car is currently at 164,000kms, and does not burn anything noticeable on the dipstick. I'm a bit overdue at 12,000kms since the last change, but the level is just sitting under the full dot, with just a slight darker tinge to the oil.


I will be taking a used oil sample, and I'll also send in a fresh sample to see what it looks like from the bottle.
Any thoughts are much appreciated.

 

[Hansfrax]

Here's the bottle for reference.

[img:left]http://imgur.com/kS6qgsT[/img]


[img:left]http://imgur.com/JziygRl[/img]


[img:left]http://imgur.com/0pHiJKY[/img]

 

[dparm]

That labeling is kind of weird. ZDDP of 2200+ is quite high, but then they say it's fine for pretty much every modern engine.

Have you considered something like Mobil 1 0w40? It's a pretty stout oil and readily available. Otherwise, you could step up to something like Motul 300V but get ready to pay a lot more.

 

[Hansfrax]

My take is that it's like a manufacturer saying they meet a standard, but they don't actually get the certification. So I'm sure it will be fine in any engine, but in doing so it may eventually ruin the cats, etc.

The reason I've been using penrite is that the few postings I've seen here have actually come back quite positive, maybe on the heavier side of viscosity.
I'll be putting one more bottle through today for the next change as I already bought it last year, but whether I should keep going after that or look somewhere else.

I'm quite concerned with the camshaft loading though, being quite pointy and aggressive.

With the zinc levels, the way it's described doesnt sound like it's straight zddp at 2200+ ppm. "Full zinc package+" on the label sounds more like their total additive pack.

 

[Shannow]

Penrite's "2200" is all of the additive elements added up, Boron, Zn, Mo etc.

It's fine for a road car.

 

[SR5]

Hi Mate,
Welcome !!

Penrite 10-Tenths Racing is a great oil and the 5W30 is my pick of the bunch for regular street use. It's a full synthetic oil made of 100% PAO + Ester, and shear stable.

It has a high TBN of 9.8 from 2960 ppm Calcium, so it is completely suitable for regular (long) oil change intervals (OCI) like you are doing now. Some "race only" oils have a low TBN and must be changed after every race weekend, that is not the case for this Penrite oil which is designed to be used for both racing (short OCI) and on road (long OCI) applications. Your 12,000 KM is fine, but yes I agree, time to change it.

As for zinc, Penrite has been producing high zinc oils for decades, used by thousands of people from both Oz and NZ. If there were any problems with their zinc levels being too high and causing problems, it would have been spotted and fixed up way back in the 80's and 90's if not before. I've never seen any papers or facts to back up these "too much zinc hurts your engine" claims. They are just rumors, and if it is true it must be at levels well above the Penrite levels which are very generous and more than ample for IC engines. The only concern with lots of zinc is that if your car is burning lots of oil then you will eventually poison your exhaust cats. But I can't see your engine being harmed.

As for zinc levels, that Penrite 10-Tenths 5W30 has 1760 ppm zinc, 630 ppm Boron, 10 ppm moly, viscosity KV100 = 10.0 cSt and HTHS = 3.3 cP. Both the zinc and boron are anti-wear adds, so they combine these two numbers to produce the "Full Zinc" equivalent of over 2200 ppm.

The good thing about these Penrite racing oils is that they carry some real specs like the Euro ACEA A1/B1 so you know this oil is a well balanced package suitable both for day to day driving as well as racing.

I would keep using this oil, it is a excellent product, and I don't see any reason to change, unless you start burning lots of oil and are concerned about your cats. BTW a standard ILSAC oil has half the zinc you do, but it's not uncommon to hear of people burning about 1 L during their OCI, they are probably hurting their cat more than you with your very low oil consumption. So don't worry, those ILSAC users aren't worried.

Again, I like this oil a lot, but if I wanted to change brands, then the only other 5W30 oil on my radar would be Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4. This is a full synthetic (Group III) that carries lots of OEM certs: API SL, ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.5 and BMW LL-01, they are some of the toughest engine oil standards that exist right now. The oil is "SN" in quality but is only rated "SL" due to it's elevated zinc levels ( about 1000 ppm) being above the ILSAC limit. It has a TBN of 10.2, viscosity KV100 = 12.0 cSt and HTHS = 3.6 cP

So the Edge 5W30 A3/B4 is still a high zinc oil, just not as high as Penrite, but the Edge is a bit thicker with a stronger HTHS. I like the Penrite 10-Tenths chemistry (PAO and Ester) but I like how the Edge has the serious Euro manufacturers certs from BMW and MB.

These two oils, Penrite 10-Tenths and Castrol Edge A3/B4, are without doubt the two best 5W30 oils available to you and me. Period. Pick one and be happy.

 

[SR5]

Quote:
As for zinc levels, that Penrite 10-Tenths 5W30 has 1760 ppm zinc, 630 ppm Boron, 100 ppm moly, viscosity KV100 = 10.0 cSt and HTHS = 3.3 cP. Both the zinc and boron are anti-wear adds, so they combine these two numbers to produce the "Full Zinc" equivalent of over 2200 ppm.

Typo above (fixed in quote), that is 100 ppm Moly.

With a TBN of 9.8 that is a generous add pack.

 

[KL31]

I agree with sr5 about the Castrol edge. It's $79 for 10l at repco at the moment, I think. Better value than penrite. It often goes a little cheaper and rarely, it will go stupid cheap at $50 for 10L. I would have bought about 50L but they only had one left at repco when they had that sale last year.

The high Zinc will never hurt your cat either, because you deleted yours lol

 

[Hansfrax]

@SR5: Cheers for that reply mate, that's really great stuff.
I thought as much regarding the total additive pack, it wasn't specifying ZDDP alone. Those TBN figures are something I was trying to find out more on, which has quelled my worries about using it on the street.
The Castrol I will look into and try in future, as yeah the Penrite is a bit pricey. I guess that's the price of the higher grade base stock.

That's got me well reassured using it in this engine while looking good after the cams and all that jazz.

I did the oil today, she was pretty dirty indeed so I'll be shortening down now. I'll do 7000kms with a filter every second time. It might be a bit short, but we'll see how it goes




@KL31: That is crazy cheap man, I don't think we're as lucky here though. I get a good trade discount on oils though, so the Penrite is a bit more manageable
Yeah, I'm not at all worried about the cats as I'm straight piped. O2 sensors might get a bit hammered but hey. My main concern was the floating idea of too much zinc causing spalling and corrosion.

 

[Silk]

I can get oil at Repco and Supercheap cheaper on sale than on a trade account. And of course, no trade discount on sale items. I have enough Edge 5w-30 to last me to the end of time, but only use it in my wife's car and the lawnmower.

We don't want to tell the rest of the world how much we pay for oil, they would only laugh. For some people here ''extended oil change interval'' is half of what really happens.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Silk
We don't want to tell the rest of the world how much we pay for oil, they would only laugh. For some people here ''extended oil change interval'' is half of what really happens.


I've got photos around somewhere of M1 0W40, I took a pick in Anthem, Arizona of a gallon jug, for $27.99, came back to Ox, and took a pick of a litre...for $27.99

 

[Hansfrax]

Yeah, at least for the Penrite I'm buying the sale prices work out the same as my companies discount. So it's OK getting it anytime at sales price.

No doubt compared to overseas we get hammered. I laugh when I see USA fuel prices, works out to something like NZD 0.80-0.90c per litre. We're currently at NZD $2.08 per litre. And then they sometimes complain in the states haha

Tyres are another kettle of fish, especially motorbike tyres...unreal sometimes

 

[KL31]

Wow 2.08.... I remember going to NZ years ago for work and seeing their LPG prices being 1.80 or something silly too. How can they be selling for $1 more over there! Must be some [censored] taxing and gauging going on there.

 

[Silk]

Well, they were looking into it, but there is an election now, and no way are they going to upset big business.

 

[SR5]

When I was in NZ last, I was too interested in sampling their local beer and cider. But yeah, it's a bit more expensive there.

I really like how you can feel you are living in a combined Pakeha & Polynesian community. That gives NZ a special and unique character that I find enjoyable and positive.

 

[Silk]

Well, the beer is cheaper than water, which we give away for nothing. We don't make our own oil, so are at the mercy of the international market and ticket clippers. There was a short period of CNG and LPG powering cars, but now sell it for the quick buck.

We have problems, but probably the only working Euro/indigenous community there is.

 

[Hansfrax]

Originally Posted By: Silk
Well, they were looking into it, but there is an election now, and no way are they going to upset big business.


Yeah, that inquiry they did which found problems and inconsistencies in pricing, which brought prices down overnight...but then it all went quiet, and nothing more came of it and then prices crept up to now, where its 2.08 for 91 octane.

It's just the general cost of "stuff" seems high here. Bought a bunch of sump washers from the dealer as I couldn't get the oem style washer, after trade discounts it was 3.50 per washer.

Bought 10 oem filters from a guy in the states, last of the made in Japan Nissan filters. It was still cheaper by 10 dollars to pay the freight and bring them in. If I was in the states, holy moly I'd be able to change filters every 2000kms for the same overall price

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Penrite's "2200" is all of the additive elements added up, Boron, Zn, Mo etc.

It's fine for a road car.



Thanks, I thought that meant ZDDP was 2200.

 

[JFAllen]

Great to hear from another Aussie

While 12,000kms is not 'that far' given the state of modern oil change intervals. I'd be more concerned with how long the oil was in the sump. Especially if using an ester based oil. These 'can' exhibit hygroscopic behaviour where water is absorbed out of the air (and or condensate on cold mornings,) If you drive long distances, this isn't much of an issue, as the water will flash off as the oil gets up to operating temperature, but if you do lots of short trips then then problems 'can' develop. Or if the car sits for longer periods of time.

If it were my 350Z I'd be looking to do an oil change at least once every 12-months or at an interval not exceeding 10,000kms. Modern NA engines are pretty clean especially if they’ve got no EGR.

As for an oil to use. Since the motor is essentially stock (stock compression, no boost, not spinning past 7500RPM, daily/street driven 9% of the time.) The cams don’t really factor in this case. If you are a ‘Penrite guy’ and you like their PAO/EST oils, I’d be looking at their ‘Premium 0 0W40.

This will give you slightly better performance on cold start, and given that you’ve got 160k on the lump, a slightly thicker oil is often advisable to pick up the bearing clearances.

While their ‘Racing’ branded oils have a TBN suitable for extended road use. I subscribe to the fact that if it says ‘Racing’ it’s probably best left to the track.

In real terms, any XW30/40 (synthetic) will do the deal, it’s a Nissan VQ35DE after all. Personally, py go to oils these days are the low SAPS Shell Helix Ultra oils. Either 0W30 ECT C2/C3, 5W30 ECT C3 or 5W30 AG.

These oils have extremely high viscosity indices, extremely low NOACK, meet the toughest OEM spec, are clean like you can’t imagine and have a HTHS of >3.5 in all cases, making them suitable for performance applications. I’m using them on rotation (as specials come and go) in my Saab 9-5 turbo and GTi-R pulsar all with +150k on the clock with great success. More budget option is the Valvoline Synpower MST in either the 5W40 or 5W30.

An excellent oil I’ve been using for 4 years in my parents Mitsubishi Outlander and diesel Triton.

Then of course there is the Nulon Oils. Their 0W40 PAO ester oil is over priced, but their DEXOS2 and VW504/507 (VW oil is a PAO) Oils are very competitive.

Remember clean oil is better than dirty oil and as long as it meets the specs Nissan need (SN basically) you can’t lose.

Regards
Jordan

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: JFAllen

Then of course there is the Nulon Oils. ...VW504/507 (VW oil is a PAO) Oils are very competitive.

Yes, this was the first Nulon oil I've ever liked, it's a PAO synthetic and carries the very high quality VW 504 / 507 spec, as a real VW approval, not some lame "suitable for" wording. It's a 5W30 that is API SN and ACEA C3.

From what I can tell VW 504 00 / 507 00 is the same as Porsche C30.