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Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! #4509732
09/07/17 08:06 AM
09/07/17 08:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
castle Offline OP
castle  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
Hi all, I have an old Maserati Biturbo that I bought in a non-running condition. It had a bad engine so I sourced a replacement used engine.

I got everything back together and have been seeing a lot of smoke from the tailpipe.

I initially did a compression test:
cylinder 1 - 120
cylinder 2 - 115
cylinder 3 - 130
cylinder 4 - 123
cylinder 5 - 118
cylinder 6 - 118

not super high but all within 10% of each other.

No real smoke until it heated up a little bit and then really heavy at high revs - then when warm pretty much all the time.



At that point I thought maybe the turbo was blown or perhaps there were valve stem seals blown. After reading more about it, I figured it was the turbo on one side or another.

I pulled the exhaust Y pipe and:

Passenger's side:


Driver's side:


So clearly an issue on just that side. I figured the turbo on just that side blew so I pulled the engine to get at it and upon pulling the exhaust manifold off the head it was clear that the oil was coming into the system ahead of the turbo:


So then I figured that a valve stem seal had blown on that cylinder. I pulled both heads and cleaned up the valves from a LOT of oily soot and replaced all seals.
It was the top left cylinder in the below picture - cleaner than the rest due to burning oil right?

I did find a bad seal on this intake valve - note the soot:




Here's the cylinder in question:

a few scratches but nothing with any depth to it at all.
All the valves fit in the guides properly and the cylinder sleeve diameters all check out per specs

So I buttoned it all back up
All fixed right? - no

I got it back together and still smoking like crazy. Here's the view right out of the exhaust manifold.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=WYnkPgDsHFI[/video]

I pulled the turbo on that side again and same source of oil.

So, is this a simple case of stuck or broken rings? Could anything else have caused this problem? The good compression in cylinder #4 (the fouled cylinder) has me confused

I also had a bit of gas in my oil early on but I have chalked that up to excessive cranking with the distributor cap 180 degrees off (whoops!)

Thanks for your comments

Last edited by castle; 09/07/17 08:07 AM.

1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509741
09/07/17 08:19 AM
09/07/17 08:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,354
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Chris142 Online content
Chris142  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,354
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
How long did you run it? Often an engine thats been sitting will smoke a while till it clears up. My old scout fumigated the neighborhood for 45 minutes.


02 Wrangler durablend 10w40
87 F250 traveler 15w40
04 Tahoe super-s 10w30
Z400 castrol T 10w40
Can am maveric edge 5w40
57 case tractor 15w40
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509747
09/07/17 08:23 AM
09/07/17 08:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,528
USA
mk378 Online content
mk378  Online Content
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,528
USA
This seems to be an awful lot of work to dance around the fact that the rings in the "new" engine are worn. Did you do a "wet" compression test?

What is the spec for compression? Turbo engines are often set up for lower compression in the first place. Those numbers on an NA engine combined with smoke from the tailpipe would make the obvious conclusion that the rings are shot.

Last edited by mk378; 09/07/17 08:28 AM.
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509754
09/07/17 08:29 AM
09/07/17 08:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,430
Illinois
javacontour Offline
javacontour  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,430
Illinois
Any way to run it without the turbos, just to be sure?

If you have a way to take the inlet air from the turbo out of the picture and run it N/A to eliminate the turbo as a source of the oil.

Did I understand that you replaced all seals on ONE cylinder, or replaced all valve seals?


network down, IP packets delivered via UPS -BOFH
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: Chris142] #4509763
09/07/17 08:35 AM
09/07/17 08:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
castle Offline OP
castle  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: Chris142
How long did you run it? Often an engine thats been sitting will smoke a while till it clears up. My old scout fumigated the neighborhood for 45 minutes.

I ran it for a while in the garage and driveway and then took it for a short drive. It wasn't letting up. I thought maybe oil in the exhaust was the problem which is why I pulled the exhaust completely and was able to see smoke from the exhaust manifold itself


1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: mk378] #4509764
09/07/17 08:37 AM
09/07/17 08:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
castle Offline OP
castle  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: mk378
This seems to be an awful lot of work to dance around the fact that the rings in the "new" engine are worn. Did you do a "wet" compression test?

What is the spec for compression? Turbo engines are often set up for lower compression in the first place. Those numbers on an NA engine combined with smoke from the tailpipe would make the obvious conclusion that the rings are shot.


I did not do a wet compression test and I can't find a compression spec in the manual. I would think so too. just trying to make sure before I dive in


1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: javacontour] #4509766
09/07/17 08:38 AM
09/07/17 08:38 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
castle Offline OP
castle  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Any way to run it without the turbos, just to be sure?

If you have a way to take the inlet air from the turbo out of the picture and run it N/A to eliminate the turbo as a source of the oil.

Did I understand that you replaced all seals on ONE cylinder, or replaced all valve seals?


I thought about this too and I could probably do this but the oil is very clearly coming in from cylinder #4's exhaust port into the manifold and then hitting the turbo. I briefly considered the thought that the turbo could be spitting oil up but there just isn't any way.

I replaced all the valve stem seals on both heads and replaced head gaskets too.


1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509781
09/07/17 09:03 AM
09/07/17 09:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
mightymousetech Offline
mightymousetech  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,480
Ontario, Canada
Could be a crack in the head allowing oil in.


Mighty Mouse Tech
BMW Tech, Former Acura Tech
2010 Civic Si Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
2013 BMW 135i M Sport Edition Castrol 0W40, Redline MTL
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509789
09/07/17 09:16 AM
09/07/17 09:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,354
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Chris142 Online content
Chris142  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,354
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Originally Posted By: castle
Originally Posted By: mk378
This seems to be an awful lot of work to dance around the fact that the rings in the "new" engine are worn. Did you do a "wet" compression test?

What is the spec for compression? Turbo engines are often set up for lower compression in the first place. Those numbers on an NA engine combined with smoke from the tailpipe would make the obvious conclusion that the rings are shot.


I did not do a wet compression test and I can't find a compression spec in the manual. I would think so too. just trying to make sure before I dive in
give it a couple squirts of oil. then check the compression. if it goes up a few psi they are ok. if it goes up say 25 psi or more they are bad.


02 Wrangler durablend 10w40
87 F250 traveler 15w40
04 Tahoe super-s 10w30
Z400 castrol T 10w40
Can am maveric edge 5w40
57 case tractor 15w40
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509791
09/07/17 09:17 AM
09/07/17 09:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,578
wv
krismoriah72 Offline
krismoriah72  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,578
wv
If the car blows blue smoke during acceleration, it's the rings, if you are coasting down hill in gear and the car starts smoking, then its the valve guides... The vacuum in the cylinders will pull the oil through the guides when you are coasting down hill with the throttle off and it's in gear if they are worn out...

Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509812
09/07/17 09:42 AM
09/07/17 09:42 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
Linctex Online content
Linctex  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: castle


[/URL]
a few scratches but nothing with any depth to it at all.

"the cylinder sleeve diameters all check out per specs"


I disagree COMPLETELY

Those "piston ring marks" are NOT normal.

Water got into that cylinder at one time to make those.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: Linctex] #4509818
09/07/17 09:48 AM
09/07/17 09:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
castle Offline OP
castle  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: Linctex

I disagree COMPLETELY

Those "piston ring marks" are NOT normal.

Water got into that cylinder at one time to make those.


Will new rings solve this or are you saying I need a new sleeve there?


1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509890
09/07/17 11:39 AM
09/07/17 11:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 804
BerksCounty/Pa.
thorromig Offline
thorromig  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 804
BerksCounty/Pa.
Not a motor head at the least but did the head gasket go & was it replaced? Had same issues with an old Nissan 200SX with turbo. Had new head gasket & new seals put in & the smoking completely went away. Please dont burn me for this question fellow BITOGers.

Last edited by thorromig; 09/07/17 11:40 AM.

00 Dodge Ram 5.2L 4x4 Edge 10W30 FU (91K)
08 Acura TL Type S 3.5L PUPP 5W20 FU (101K)
17 Jetta TSI SE 1.4L Turbo - Edge 0W40 FU (Hers) (4K)
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: thorromig] #4509895
09/07/17 11:43 AM
09/07/17 11:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
castle Offline OP
castle  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 16
Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: thorromig
Not a motor head at the least but did the head gasket go & was it replaced? Had same issues with an old Nissan 200SX with turbo. Had new head gasket & new seals put in & the smoking completely went away. Please dont burn me for this question fellow BITOGers.


It didn't fail while I've had the car but I don't know the history of the motor.

I did just replace the seals and head gaskets but the smoke persists


1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250
Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle] #4509961
09/07/17 01:09 PM
09/07/17 01:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
Merkava_4 Offline
Merkava_4  Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,501
Clovis, CA
What is the year of this Maserati Biturbo ?

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