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#4509732 - 09/07/17 08:06 AM Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please!
castle Offline


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 16
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Hi all, I have an old Maserati Biturbo that I bought in a non-running condition. It had a bad engine so I sourced a replacement used engine.

I got everything back together and have been seeing a lot of smoke from the tailpipe.

I initially did a compression test:
cylinder 1 - 120
cylinder 2 - 115
cylinder 3 - 130
cylinder 4 - 123
cylinder 5 - 118
cylinder 6 - 118

not super high but all within 10% of each other.

No real smoke until it heated up a little bit and then really heavy at high revs - then when warm pretty much all the time.



At that point I thought maybe the turbo was blown or perhaps there were valve stem seals blown. After reading more about it, I figured it was the turbo on one side or another.

I pulled the exhaust Y pipe and:

Passenger's side:


Driver's side:


So clearly an issue on just that side. I figured the turbo on just that side blew so I pulled the engine to get at it and upon pulling the exhaust manifold off the head it was clear that the oil was coming into the system ahead of the turbo:


So then I figured that a valve stem seal had blown on that cylinder. I pulled both heads and cleaned up the valves from a LOT of oily soot and replaced all seals.
It was the top left cylinder in the below picture - cleaner than the rest due to burning oil right?

I did find a bad seal on this intake valve - note the soot:




Here's the cylinder in question:

a few scratches but nothing with any depth to it at all.
All the valves fit in the guides properly and the cylinder sleeve diameters all check out per specs

So I buttoned it all back up
All fixed right? - no

I got it back together and still smoking like crazy. Here's the view right out of the exhaust manifold.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=WYnkPgDsHFI[/video]

I pulled the turbo on that side again and same source of oil.

So, is this a simple case of stuck or broken rings? Could anything else have caused this problem? The good compression in cylinder #4 (the fouled cylinder) has me confused

I also had a bit of gas in my oil early on but I have chalked that up to excessive cranking with the distributor cap 180 degrees off (whoops!)

Thanks for your comments


Edited by castle (09/07/17 08:07 AM)
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1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250

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#4509741 - 09/07/17 08:19 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 16812
Loc: Deplorable in apple valley, ca
How long did you run it? Often an engine thats been sitting will smoke a while till it clears up. My old scout fumigated the neighborhood for 45 minutes.
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#4509747 - 09/07/17 08:23 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
mk378 Offline


Registered: 09/27/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: USA
This seems to be an awful lot of work to dance around the fact that the rings in the "new" engine are worn. Did you do a "wet" compression test?

What is the spec for compression? Turbo engines are often set up for lower compression in the first place. Those numbers on an NA engine combined with smoke from the tailpipe would make the obvious conclusion that the rings are shot.


Edited by mk378 (09/07/17 08:28 AM)

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#4509754 - 09/07/17 08:29 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
javacontour Offline


Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 10306
Loc: Illinois
Any way to run it without the turbos, just to be sure?

If you have a way to take the inlet air from the turbo out of the picture and run it N/A to eliminate the turbo as a source of the oil.

Did I understand that you replaced all seals on ONE cylinder, or replaced all valve seals?
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#4509763 - 09/07/17 08:35 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: Chris142]
castle Offline


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 16
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: Chris142
How long did you run it? Often an engine thats been sitting will smoke a while till it clears up. My old scout fumigated the neighborhood for 45 minutes.

I ran it for a while in the garage and driveway and then took it for a short drive. It wasn't letting up. I thought maybe oil in the exhaust was the problem which is why I pulled the exhaust completely and was able to see smoke from the exhaust manifold itself
_________________________
1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250

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#4509764 - 09/07/17 08:37 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: mk378]
castle Offline


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 16
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: mk378
This seems to be an awful lot of work to dance around the fact that the rings in the "new" engine are worn. Did you do a "wet" compression test?

What is the spec for compression? Turbo engines are often set up for lower compression in the first place. Those numbers on an NA engine combined with smoke from the tailpipe would make the obvious conclusion that the rings are shot.


I did not do a wet compression test and I can't find a compression spec in the manual. I would think so too. just trying to make sure before I dive in
_________________________
1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250

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#4509766 - 09/07/17 08:38 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: javacontour]
castle Offline


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 16
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Any way to run it without the turbos, just to be sure?

If you have a way to take the inlet air from the turbo out of the picture and run it N/A to eliminate the turbo as a source of the oil.

Did I understand that you replaced all seals on ONE cylinder, or replaced all valve seals?


I thought about this too and I could probably do this but the oil is very clearly coming in from cylinder #4's exhaust port into the manifold and then hitting the turbo. I briefly considered the thought that the turbo could be spitting oil up but there just isn't any way.

I replaced all the valve stem seals on both heads and replaced head gaskets too.
_________________________
1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250

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#4509781 - 09/07/17 09:03 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
mightymousetech Offline


Registered: 04/03/17
Posts: 1444
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Could be a crack in the head allowing oil in.
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#4509789 - 09/07/17 09:16 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 16812
Loc: Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Originally Posted By: castle
Originally Posted By: mk378
This seems to be an awful lot of work to dance around the fact that the rings in the "new" engine are worn. Did you do a "wet" compression test?

What is the spec for compression? Turbo engines are often set up for lower compression in the first place. Those numbers on an NA engine combined with smoke from the tailpipe would make the obvious conclusion that the rings are shot.


I did not do a wet compression test and I can't find a compression spec in the manual. I would think so too. just trying to make sure before I dive in
give it a couple squirts of oil. then check the compression. if it goes up a few psi they are ok. if it goes up say 25 psi or more they are bad.
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#4509791 - 09/07/17 09:17 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
krismoriah72 Offline


Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 1515
Loc: wv
If the car blows blue smoke during acceleration, it's the rings, if you are coasting down hill in gear and the car starts smoking, then its the valve guides... The vacuum in the cylinders will pull the oil through the guides when you are coasting down hill with the throttle off and it's in gear if they are worn out...

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#4509812 - 09/07/17 09:42 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: castle


[/URL]
a few scratches but nothing with any depth to it at all.

"the cylinder sleeve diameters all check out per specs"


I disagree COMPLETELY

Those "piston ring marks" are NOT normal.

Water got into that cylinder at one time to make those.
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#4509818 - 09/07/17 09:48 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: Linctex]
castle Offline


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 16
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: Linctex

I disagree COMPLETELY

Those "piston ring marks" are NOT normal.

Water got into that cylinder at one time to make those.


Will new rings solve this or are you saying I need a new sleeve there?
_________________________
1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250

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#4509890 - 09/07/17 11:39 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
thorromig Offline


Registered: 03/22/12
Posts: 804
Loc: BerksCounty/Pa.
Not a motor head at the least but did the head gasket go & was it replaced? Had same issues with an old Nissan 200SX with turbo. Had new head gasket & new seals put in & the smoking completely went away. Please dont burn me for this question fellow BITOGers.


Edited by thorromig (09/07/17 11:40 AM)
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#4509895 - 09/07/17 11:43 AM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: thorromig]
castle Offline


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 16
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Originally Posted By: thorromig
Not a motor head at the least but did the head gasket go & was it replaced? Had same issues with an old Nissan 200SX with turbo. Had new head gasket & new seals put in & the smoking completely went away. Please dont burn me for this question fellow BITOGers.


It didn't fail while I've had the car but I don't know the history of the motor.

I did just replace the seals and head gaskets but the smoke persists
_________________________
1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
1994 Audi Cabriolet
1995 Audi 90 Quattro
2011 Audi A4 Avant Quattro
2014 Mercedes GLK 250

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#4509961 - 09/07/17 01:09 PM Re: Smoke from Engine - Help me diagnose please! [Re: castle]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 17501
Loc: Clovis, CA
What is the year of this Maserati Biturbo ?

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