Recent Topics
Best recommendation for Honda 10w30 trans
by Pepsibottle1
06/25/18 01:55 PM
Mills Fleet Farm Roadrunner batteries - who makes?
by volk06
06/25/18 01:09 PM
Honda ATF DW1 bottle stamp decoding
by parshisa
06/25/18 12:03 PM
How to lower throttle sensitivity?
by NICAT
06/25/18 11:41 AM
That's some service! (New Central AC...)
by xBa380
06/25/18 11:13 AM
Valvoline 2 Cycle TC-W3 Marine Oil - 6qt - $20
by Jimzz
06/25/18 10:45 AM
Plumbing/Bldg Experts: Cause of Wet Slab?
by LoneRanger
06/25/18 10:13 AM
How to CONFIRM the Country of Manufacture
by Ed_Flecko
06/25/18 09:58 AM
Replacing trans oil seal
by redhat
06/25/18 09:50 AM
VW diesels sitting in huge lots waiting......
by ZZman
06/25/18 09:09 AM
DTD/DT Independence Day Promos
by Sayjac
06/25/18 08:39 AM
It's AMSOILŪ, not Amsoil
by Rat407
06/25/18 06:39 AM
VW Passat 2007
by madRiver
06/25/18 06:18 AM
Review: CVJ Remanufactured CV Axles
by The Critic
06/25/18 03:40 AM
Towing without 85w140?
by OilFilters
06/25/18 03:07 AM
2015 VW GTI autobahn oil questions
by Skyalbo
06/24/18 11:28 PM
Corrosion in the garage - salt or humidity?
by Kurtatron
06/24/18 11:13 PM
Darn dogs
by AZjeff
06/24/18 10:21 PM
New GC?
by Bullwinkle007
06/24/18 10:04 PM
The guy with the plexiglass head on you tube
by andyd
06/24/18 09:21 PM
Newest Members
dhy808, ROD_Z, lozpxs, danthemanx07, FunktasticLucky
65319 Registered Users
Who's Online
84 registered (853okg, 28oz, 9050lx, 4WD, AndyB, 8 invisible), 1738 Guests and 41 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65319 Members
67 Forums
285970 Topics
4772310 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Topic Options
#4509685 - 09/07/17 06:59 AM Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110
shanneba Offline


Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 888
Loc: Indiana (IN)
Here is the latest Primary/Transmision UOA from my Sportster.

This was 10,000 miles on Red Line 75w-110 GL5 diff lube.
I am now running Red Line 75w-90 GL5 diff lube.
Maybe next time I'll run Formula +

You can see the difference in the additives between the Manual Trans fluid and the Diff lube.
Sql Query:
+--------------+----------------+-----------+-----------+
|              | Miles on oil   | 10000     | 10000     |
|              | Total miles    | 15000     | 25000     |
|              | Date           | 03/26/16  | 08/16/17  |
|              | Make up oil    | 0         | 0         |
|              | Oil Brand      | Red Line  | Red Line  |
|              | Weight         | MT-90     | 75w-110   |
|Universal avg |                |           |           |
| ~ 5700 miles |                |           |           |
| 9            | ALUMINUM       | 82        | 81        |
| 0            | CHROMIUM       | 0         | 0         |
| 47           | IRON           | 58        | 74        |
| 6            | COPPER         | 21        | 56        |
| 1            | LEAD           | 2         | 1         |
| 1            | TIN            | 0         | 0         |
| 141          | MOLYBDENUM     | 16        | 6         |
| 0            | NICKEL         | 1         | 1         |
| 1            | MANGANESE      | 1         | 1         |
| 0            | SILVER         | 0         | 0         |
| 0            | TITANIUM       | 0         | 0         |
| 5            | POTASSIUM      | 2         | 3         |
| 165          | BORON          | 137       | 131       |
| 14           | SILICON        | 49        | 77        |
| 6            | SODIUM         | 5         | 8         |
| 1859         | CALCIUM        | 2933      | 408       |
| 180          | MAGNESIUM      | 109       | 23        |
| 960          | PHOSPHORUS     | 1957      | 2930      |
| 535          | ZINC           | 2199      | 392       |
| 0            | BARIUM         | 0         | 1         |
|              |                |           |           |
|              | SUS @ 210F     | 77.2      | 92.7      |
|              | cSt @ 100C     | 14.83     | 18.63     |
|              | Flashpoint F   | 440       | 435       |
|              | Insolubles %   | TR        | 0.4       |
|              | TBN            |           |           |
|              | TAN            |           |           |
+--------------+----------------+-----------+-----------+
_________________________
2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C

Top
#4509808 - 09/07/17 09:38 AM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6178
Loc: Waco, TX
I have a couple neodymium magnets epoxied to the inside of my primary cover. Do that and your iron numbers will go way down.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

Top
#4509836 - 09/07/17 10:18 AM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
shanneba Offline


Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 888
Loc: Indiana (IN)
No need to open anything up, I'm fine with the iron numbers.
The drain plug already has a magnet in it.
Iron is within the "averages" when you compare the mileage difference.

AL is higher. I do have a HD Screamn' Eagle extra plate Kevlar clutch installed with a 10% heavier spring.

My plan is just to continue chain and clutch adjustment and run UOAs for now.
Not enough of these UOAs to compare too.
_________________________
2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C

Top
#4509847 - 09/07/17 10:35 AM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
MotoTribologist Offline


Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 562
Loc: NJ, USA
I'm surprised you aren't getting clutch slip with those products. I know that have the limited slip additives, but even so that system usually needs something with less friction reduction.

Also, GL-5's usually aren't suggested where yellow metals are present unless they are sufficiently buffered. Based on your copper numbers, I would assume that GL-5 is not buffered. If you are going to keep using it, I'd suggest keeping a close eye on any yellow metal components.

Top
#4510021 - 09/07/17 02:00 PM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
shanneba Offline


Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 888
Loc: Indiana (IN)
The Red Line MT-90 is a GL4 rated oil and has the friction characteristics for brass syncros in transmissions.
The Harley has a constant mesh transmission without synchronizers.

ALL of the Red Line GL5 oils test as 1A in the ASTM D-130 test.
ratings fall on a scale going from 1A (least corrosive) to 4C (most corrosive)

I have a heavier clutch spring and kevlar friction plates, the only slip I notice is tire slip.
_________________________
2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C

Top
#4510033 - 09/07/17 02:10 PM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
MotoTribologist Offline


Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 562
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: shanneba
The Red Line MT-90 is a GL4 rated oil and has the friction characteristics for brass syncros in transmissions.
The Harley has a constant mesh transmission without synchronizers.

ALL of the Red Line GL5 oils test as 1A in the ASTM D-130 test.
ratings fall on a scale going from 1A (least corrosive) to 4C (most corrosive)

I have a heavier clutch spring and kevlar friction plates, the only slip I notice is tire slip.

Right, the GL-4 should be totally fine.

I didn't see that Cu corrosion data on the GL-5. Is that for a 3 hour period or 24 hour period? Despite that, your copper levels are elevated with the GL-5 compared to the GL-4. I just thought I'd point it out and offer up a theory as to why.

Top
#4510157 - 09/07/17 04:28 PM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: MotoTribologist]
shanneba Offline


Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 888
Loc: Indiana (IN)
Thanks for the heads up on copper.
There is an Amsoil oil comparison on the web that shows the Red Line 75w-90 tested as 1B by Amsoil.
It shows being done at the MT-1 temp of 250 F for 3 hours.
http://www.oilteksolutions.com/GearLubeWhitePaper.pdf

I contacted Red Line and they replied it is 1A for their GL5 lubes.

From Dave at Red Line-
"Our GL-5 gear oils pass the D-130 1A, they contain a copper deactivator so are not corrosive to brass, bronze or copper."

The copper would be coming from the stator in the primary for the electrical system.


Edited by shanneba (09/07/17 04:28 PM)
_________________________
2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C

Top
#4511072 - 09/08/17 06:03 PM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6178
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: shanneba

I have a heavier clutch spring and kevlar friction plates, the only slip I notice is tire slip.


I could never get the back tire to spin on my Sportster.
She was a wheelie-in' bee-otch.
Going into 3rd gear at 65 would bring the front tire up for a third time!

Best run: 12.39 in the 1/4 at Houston Raceway
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

Top
#4512143 - 09/10/17 09:37 AM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2152
Loc: South Carolina
Would REALLY look forward to seeing a Formula+ UOA on your trans/primary. Something many people do not do and now with your gear lube UOAs there is a reference point.

Personally for me, I will not use a gear lube in a transmission designed to run engine oil anymore then I would use engine oil in a transmission designed to run gear oil.

There are a mix of both types of fluids used in Car, Truck, Bike Transmissions, heck anything with gears and I trust the engineers who make the decisions on the fluid.

I dont think it will harm anything but if there is a potential for harm it will be from the fluid that is not recommended.


Edited by alarmguy (09/10/17 09:39 AM)
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

Top
#4513913 - 09/12/17 06:31 AM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
shanneba Offline


Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 888
Loc: Indiana (IN)
I would like to see several UOAs of 10,000 mile runs of Formula+.

To keep things simple just use Formula+ in the primary/transmission smile

I only ran it for the first 1000 miles, then SYN3 was run until the clutch was replaced at just over 3000 miles.

I have only seen one Formula+ VOA and it didn't show much in the way of additives.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3087905&Searchpage=1&Main=72166&Words=Formula+%2B&Search=true#Post3087905

It tested as a GL1 gear lube about the same viscosity as a 50 weight motor oil.
Harley even states not to use it in the engine.
Formula+ is the only primary/trans lube mentioned in my owners manual (it doesn't list SYN3 )
https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/quart---formula--transmission-and-primary-chaincase-lubricant
" Formula+ is blended to provide lubricity for the anti-wear requirements of transmission gears. Not for use in the crankcase as a motor oil"
They do also suggest their SYN3 20w-50 can be used in the Sportster Primary/Transmission.
They do not have the same recommendation for the HD360 20w-50 mineral oil.


Edited by shanneba (09/12/17 06:32 AM)
_________________________
2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C

Top
#4513924 - 09/12/17 06:43 AM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: shanneba]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2152
Loc: South Carolina
Correct Formula+ is primary/transmission fluid/oil, never an engine oil as any transmission fluid is not either.
Correct very little additives because its not being used in a combustion engine, just oiling gears, doesnt need detergents more much zinc as the gears do not run dry like an engine. Maybe better said GL1 performance type oil is all that is recommended for some reason.

Im sure the clutch was covered under warranty, did they find the cause? Slipping?


Edited by alarmguy (09/12/17 06:47 AM)
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

Top
#4514533 - 09/12/17 07:42 PM Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-110 [Re: alarmguy]
shanneba Offline


Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 888
Loc: Indiana (IN)
There are very little anti wear additives in Formula+, very little detergents also.
It doesn't need anything to combat blow by, moisture or the carbon from combustion.

The clutch was not covered under warranty, it was deliberate damage to the clutch while my now ex wife had possession of the bike.
_________________________
2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C

Top