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#4508420 - 09/05/17 08:13 PM Blackstone Lab Help
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 796
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
Mods i realize I posted this in the wrong section: sorry.

So, I e-mail Blkst concerning an analysis of current oil, SN oils. I told them that I didn't want a standard UOA and wished to know exactly what was in the oil, concerning additives. I've already had an UOA completed. I inquired about an advanced test concerning the additives. They offered to do a TBN, which didn't answer my question, duh. I wrote a paragraph and received a single reply about a TBN. WOW! What terrific service. What other labs are recommended? Customer service is not their forte...


Edited by Pajero (09/05/17 08:13 PM)
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#4508422 - 09/05/17 08:15 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9113
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Pajero
So, I e-mail Blkst concerning an analysis of current oil, SN oils. I told them that I didn't want a standard UOA and wished to know exactly what was in the oil, concerning additives. I've already had an UOA completed. I inquired about an advanced test concerning the additives. They offered to do a TBN, which didn't answer my question, duh. I wrote a paragraph and received a single reply about a TBN. WOW! What terrific service. What other labs are recommended? Customer service is not their forte...

What exactly do you want to know about the oil other than what is in a standard VOA or UOA? Anything beyond that is likely quite outside the capabilities of Blackstone, or most any laboratory for that matter.

And if you do find out are you able to interpret what you learn?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 225K
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#4508426 - 09/05/17 08:18 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn]
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 796
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
A friend is a chemist.
_________________________
Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

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Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot

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#4508430 - 09/05/17 08:22 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn]
Pajero Offline


Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 796
Loc: Rio Rancho, NM
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Pajero
So, I e-mail Blkst concerning an analysis of current oil, SN oils. I told them that I didn't want a standard UOA and wished to know exactly what was in the oil, concerning additives. I've already had an UOA completed. I inquired about an advanced test concerning the additives. They offered to do a TBN, which didn't answer my question, duh. I wrote a paragraph and received a single reply about a TBN. WOW! What terrific service. What other labs are recommended? Customer service is not their forte...

What exactly do you want to know about the oil other than what is in a standard VOA or UOA? Anything beyond that is likely quite outside the capabilities of Blackstone, or most any laboratory for that matter.

And if you do find out are you able to interpret what you learn?


Yes, I wasn't asking for a typical VOA, UOA. They never answered my question about their capabilities or explained anything. It was like they never read what I wrote and typed a quick response. I've already had an UOA with TBN. A good friend is a chemist for the data return.
_________________________
Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

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Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
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#4508434 - 09/05/17 08:24 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35565
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Pajero
A friend is a chemist.

And...?
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#4508448 - 09/05/17 08:37 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn]
ndfergy Offline


Registered: 03/28/16
Posts: 412
Loc: burlington ,ontario, canada
And if you do find out are you able to interpret what you learn?

Exactly. A chemist in the field may be able to interpret the data and dead reckon its effectiveness but short of a particle physicist and the Haydron collider there's a lot of interactions at the atomic level that's unknown - think LSPI.

Oil formulation is probably as much science as it is empirical. Blackstone's standard results should suffice if you're so inclined to use them.
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#4508501 - 09/05/17 09:41 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero]
chemman Offline


Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Maryland
As an analytical chemist who has worked in the field of synthetic fuels (my doctoral research) it would take many, many hours of sample preparation in order to isolate the various additives into enough groups in order to make any type of semi-qualitative analysis possible. In order to perform the semi-qualitative analysis, multiple procedures involving high performanace liguid chromatography - mass spectroscopy, gas chromatography - mass spectrometry, infrared spectroscopy analysis, nuclear magnetic resonanace spectroscopy, and perhaps several other methods of analysis would be required, and then add on many, many more hours of time to interpret and report on the results.

The cost to do this would essentially cost prohibitive for the average person.

Blackstone looks at the known elemental components of the various compounds that go into the various additive packages that are used to blend a final, finished oil product, and reports on those. These are known from various literature articles the scientists at the additive companies and the oil companies submit for publication. Also, different grades of crude oils will need different additive packages in order to make a finished product. Also, to complicate matters, it used to be (20 + years ago) that finished oils destined for sale in humid areas of the USA had somewhat different additive packages than finished products going to drier areas of the USA in order to keep the oils from creating that yucky creamy milky looking like substance one might see under an oil cap in the middle of winter.
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#4508536 - 09/05/17 10:07 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero]
SirTanon Offline


Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1983
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona - USA
Originally Posted By: Pajero
A friend is a chemist.


If this is the case, wouldn't it make more sense to ask the chemist friend to do a detailed analysis of the oil, rather than sending it off to a company that only basically does 'top-level' analysis?
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#4508608 - 09/05/17 11:47 PM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero]
ndfergy Offline


Registered: 03/28/16
Posts: 412
Loc: burlington ,ontario, canada
Stephen H. just called. It's the Hadron Collider. My bad laugh
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#4508790 - 09/06/17 08:30 AM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: chemman]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9113
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: chemman
As an analytical chemist who has worked in the field of synthetic fuels (my doctoral research) it would take many, many hours of sample preparation in order to isolate the various additives into enough groups in order to make any type of semi-qualitative analysis possible. In order to perform the semi-qualitative analysis, multiple procedures involving high performanace liguid chromatography - mass spectroscopy, gas chromatography - mass spectrometry, infrared spectroscopy analysis, nuclear magnetic resonanace spectroscopy, and perhaps several other methods of analysis would be required, and then add on many, many more hours of time to interpret and report on the results.

The cost to do this would essentially cost prohibitive for the average person.

When I was in college I worked for a professor in the Chemistry department that also had a side job "reverse engineering" cleaning products for a local company. What you say above is true and even then for some complex mixtures it is still very difficult to determine the exact composition of some components. In the end it usually involves educated guessing based on experience and general knowledge of what is typically used in a particular product. Blackstone Labs is wholly incapable of reverse engineering a motor oil with their resources, and at the same time neither do they wish to do so. The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 225K
1996 Honda Accord, 268K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 389K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 265K

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#4508844 - 09/06/17 09:20 AM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35565
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.

I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is looking for exactly. What does "advanced test concerning the additives" mean?
_________________________
'02 530i (Edge HM 10W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)

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#4508856 - 09/06/17 09:31 AM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Quattro Pete]
SirTanon Offline


Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1983
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona - USA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.

I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is looking for exactly. What does "advanced test concerning the additives" mean?



He wants the kind of analysis you'd see performed in a science fiction movie, such as the kind Jarvis would deliver to Tony Stark.
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#4508859 - 09/06/17 09:32 AM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Quattro Pete]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9113
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.

I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is looking for exactly. What does "advanced test concerning the additives" mean?

I don't know either, but he probably wants to know the composition of the base stocks plus some sort of evaluation of additives and how they relate to overall performance.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 225K
1996 Honda Accord, 268K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 389K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 265K

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#4508861 - 09/06/17 09:35 AM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero]
MotoTribologist Offline


Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 522
Loc: NJ, USA
I suspect he believes elemental analysis is only the tip of the iceberg, when it fact it is pretty much as sophisticated as it gets. As Chemman described, you could do more than just ICP to breakdown the elemental composition further, but it is:

a. cost prohibitive, and
b. not going to tell you a whole lot more than an ICP already did.

Unless you already know the exact formula, the best you can do is make educated guesses based on the elemental counts. There are too many additive companies making too many similar, yet variant, additives to nail down exactly what additives are being used at the exact percentages in any one product.

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#4508930 - 09/06/17 10:44 AM Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero]
csandste Offline


Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 1103
Loc: St. Peters, Missouri
I've owned close to forty cars and only had one engine failure, a coolant leak that I ignored in the early eighties. I follow this site because it's interesting, but why would paying extra for this make any sense? Most of us are probably OCD on this subject already without forking over still more money.

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