Recent Topics
Avoiding rust in the rust belt states?
by Chris B.. 12/13/18 03:00 PM
Joey Logano and the 2019 Mustang
by Malo83. 12/13/18 02:40 PM
BMW LL01FE Spec
by The Critic. 12/13/18 02:03 PM
I Tried and Failed to Not Buy a New Car
by badtlc. 12/13/18 01:49 PM
OEM Brand Coolant by Rocochem
by NumbersGuy. 12/13/18 01:15 PM
Motomaster Dexron Vi Fully Synthetic
by Gannet167. 12/13/18 12:55 PM
Hacked
by Smoky14. 12/13/18 12:41 PM
Scanning for U codes.
by LeakySeals. 12/13/18 12:23 PM
Food photography trickery
by nthach. 12/13/18 11:29 AM
oil for 2.5 2013 vw passat?
by jstert. 12/13/18 09:47 AM
Scotty Kilmer Parody
by oilpsi2high. 12/13/18 09:41 AM
ID this old tool
by John_Conrad. 12/13/18 09:30 AM
Weak New CR2032/remote start + fob batteries
by redhat. 12/13/18 09:23 AM
Smart charges/time
by Duffyjr. 12/13/18 08:24 AM
7.3 powerstroke water pump
by mobilaltima. 12/13/18 07:10 AM
98 Jeep Cherokee, what oil is spec'd?
by otis24. 12/13/18 06:31 AM
fixing LED Christmas lights
by danez_yoda. 12/13/18 06:30 AM
Newest Members
WondrousBread, slickoo9, turntable_life, Poles19, HinaMach
66669 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
112 registered members (Alfred_B, andyd, 28oz, A310, 97prizm, 2009Edge, 12 invisible), 1,947 guests, and 33 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,028
Posts4,926,379
Members66,669
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Blackstone Lab Help #4508420
09/05/17 07:13 PM
09/05/17 07:13 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
Pajero Offline OP
Pajero  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
Mods i realize I posted this in the wrong section: sorry.

So, I e-mail Blkst concerning an analysis of current oil, SN oils. I told them that I didn't want a standard UOA and wished to know exactly what was in the oil, concerning additives. I've already had an UOA completed. I inquired about an advanced test concerning the additives. They offered to do a TBN, which didn't answer my question, duh. I wrote a paragraph and received a single reply about a TBN. WOW! What terrific service. What other labs are recommended? Customer service is not their forte...


Edited by Pajero (09/05/17 08:13 PM)


Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero] #4508422
09/05/17 07:15 PM
09/05/17 07:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,304
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,304
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Pajero
So, I e-mail Blkst concerning an analysis of current oil, SN oils. I told them that I didn't want a standard UOA and wished to know exactly what was in the oil, concerning additives. I've already had an UOA completed. I inquired about an advanced test concerning the additives. They offered to do a TBN, which didn't answer my question, duh. I wrote a paragraph and received a single reply about a TBN. WOW! What terrific service. What other labs are recommended? Customer service is not their forte...

What exactly do you want to know about the oil other than what is in a standard VOA or UOA? Anything beyond that is likely quite outside the capabilities of Blackstone, or most any laboratory for that matter.

And if you do find out are you able to interpret what you learn?


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn] #4508426
09/05/17 07:18 PM
09/05/17 07:18 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
Pajero Offline OP
Pajero  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
A friend is a chemist.


Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn] #4508430
09/05/17 07:22 PM
09/05/17 07:22 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
Pajero Offline OP
Pajero  Offline OP
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 953
Rio Rancho, NM
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Pajero
So, I e-mail Blkst concerning an analysis of current oil, SN oils. I told them that I didn't want a standard UOA and wished to know exactly what was in the oil, concerning additives. I've already had an UOA completed. I inquired about an advanced test concerning the additives. They offered to do a TBN, which didn't answer my question, duh. I wrote a paragraph and received a single reply about a TBN. WOW! What terrific service. What other labs are recommended? Customer service is not their forte...

What exactly do you want to know about the oil other than what is in a standard VOA or UOA? Anything beyond that is likely quite outside the capabilities of Blackstone, or most any laboratory for that matter.

And if you do find out are you able to interpret what you learn?


Yes, I wasn't asking for a typical VOA, UOA. They never answered my question about their capabilities or explained anything. It was like they never read what I wrote and typed a quick response. I've already had an UOA with TBN. A good friend is a chemist for the data return.


Always remember "Planned obsolescence."

1994 Montero SR 3.5 DOHC, 133,xxx
Fram Ultra/ Snorkel with Pre-filter
K-9-Co-pilot
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero] #4508434
09/05/17 07:24 PM
09/05/17 07:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,620
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,620
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Pajero
A friend is a chemist.

And...?


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn] #4508448
09/05/17 07:37 PM
09/05/17 07:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
burlington ,ontario, canada
ndfergy Offline
ndfergy  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
burlington ,ontario, canada
And if you do find out are you able to interpret what you learn?

Exactly. A chemist in the field may be able to interpret the data and dead reckon its effectiveness but short of a particle physicist and the Haydron collider there's a lot of interactions at the atomic level that's unknown - think LSPI.

Oil formulation is probably as much science as it is empirical. Blackstone's standard results should suffice if you're so inclined to use them.


2015 Toyota Yaris 5spd Manual
Summer: Mobil Super 1000 10w30
Winter: Mobil Super 1000 5w30
OEM Filter
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero] #4508501
09/05/17 08:41 PM
09/05/17 08:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 84
Maryland
chemman Offline
chemman  Offline
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 84
Maryland
As an analytical chemist who has worked in the field of synthetic fuels (my doctoral research) it would take many, many hours of sample preparation in order to isolate the various additives into enough groups in order to make any type of semi-qualitative analysis possible. In order to perform the semi-qualitative analysis, multiple procedures involving high performanace liguid chromatography - mass spectroscopy, gas chromatography - mass spectrometry, infrared spectroscopy analysis, nuclear magnetic resonanace spectroscopy, and perhaps several other methods of analysis would be required, and then add on many, many more hours of time to interpret and report on the results.

The cost to do this would essentially cost prohibitive for the average person.

Blackstone looks at the known elemental components of the various compounds that go into the various additive packages that are used to blend a final, finished oil product, and reports on those. These are known from various literature articles the scientists at the additive companies and the oil companies submit for publication. Also, different grades of crude oils will need different additive packages in order to make a finished product. Also, to complicate matters, it used to be (20 + years ago) that finished oils destined for sale in humid areas of the USA had somewhat different additive packages than finished products going to drier areas of the USA in order to keep the oils from creating that yucky creamy milky looking like substance one might see under an oil cap in the middle of winter.


92 Olds 88 Hav 5w30 PL/L24011
99 Buick Century Hav 5w30 PL/L24011
99 Silverado 5.3L Hav 5w30 PL/L25288
04 TrailBlazer 4.2L Hav 5w30 PL/L25288
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero] #4508536
09/05/17 09:07 PM
09/05/17 09:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,736
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
SirTanon Online content
SirTanon  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,736
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
Originally Posted By: Pajero
A friend is a chemist.


If this is the case, wouldn't it make more sense to ask the chemist friend to do a detailed analysis of the oil, rather than sending it off to a company that only basically does 'top-level' analysis?


2010 Ford Fusion SE - 2.5 liter/6F35 Trans - 266,000mi
2014 Nissan Altima SL - 2.5 liter/CVT - 60,000mi
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero] #4508608
09/05/17 10:47 PM
09/05/17 10:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
burlington ,ontario, canada
ndfergy Offline
ndfergy  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
burlington ,ontario, canada
Stephen H. just called. It's the Hadron Collider. My bad laugh


2015 Toyota Yaris 5spd Manual
Summer: Mobil Super 1000 10w30
Winter: Mobil Super 1000 5w30
OEM Filter
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: chemman] #4508790
09/06/17 07:30 AM
09/06/17 07:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,304
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,304
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: chemman
As an analytical chemist who has worked in the field of synthetic fuels (my doctoral research) it would take many, many hours of sample preparation in order to isolate the various additives into enough groups in order to make any type of semi-qualitative analysis possible. In order to perform the semi-qualitative analysis, multiple procedures involving high performanace liguid chromatography - mass spectroscopy, gas chromatography - mass spectrometry, infrared spectroscopy analysis, nuclear magnetic resonanace spectroscopy, and perhaps several other methods of analysis would be required, and then add on many, many more hours of time to interpret and report on the results.

The cost to do this would essentially cost prohibitive for the average person.

When I was in college I worked for a professor in the Chemistry department that also had a side job "reverse engineering" cleaning products for a local company. What you say above is true and even then for some complex mixtures it is still very difficult to determine the exact composition of some components. In the end it usually involves educated guessing based on experience and general knowledge of what is typically used in a particular product. Blackstone Labs is wholly incapable of reverse engineering a motor oil with their resources, and at the same time neither do they wish to do so. The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: kschachn] #4508844
09/06/17 08:20 AM
09/06/17 08:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,620
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,620
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.

I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is looking for exactly. What does "advanced test concerning the additives" mean?


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Quattro Pete] #4508856
09/06/17 08:31 AM
09/06/17 08:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,736
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
SirTanon Online content
SirTanon  Online Content
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,736
Phoenix, Arizona - USA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.

I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is looking for exactly. What does "advanced test concerning the additives" mean?



He wants the kind of analysis you'd see performed in a science fiction movie, such as the kind Jarvis would deliver to Tony Stark.


2010 Ford Fusion SE - 2.5 liter/6F35 Trans - 266,000mi
2014 Nissan Altima SL - 2.5 liter/CVT - 60,000mi
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Quattro Pete] #4508859
09/06/17 08:32 AM
09/06/17 08:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,304
Upper Midwest
kschachn Online content
kschachn  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,304
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The OP's criticism of their response is inappropriate because the request to them was inappropriate in the first place.

I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is looking for exactly. What does "advanced test concerning the additives" mean?

I don't know either, but he probably wants to know the composition of the base stocks plus some sort of evaluation of additives and how they relate to overall performance.


1994 BMW 530i, 238K
1996 Honda Accord, 266K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 407K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 280K
Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero] #4508861
09/06/17 08:35 AM
09/06/17 08:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
MotoTribologist Offline
MotoTribologist  Offline
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 686
NJ, USA
I suspect he believes elemental analysis is only the tip of the iceberg, when it fact it is pretty much as sophisticated as it gets. As Chemman described, you could do more than just ICP to breakdown the elemental composition further, but it is:

a. cost prohibitive, and
b. not going to tell you a whole lot more than an ICP already did.

Unless you already know the exact formula, the best you can do is make educated guesses based on the elemental counts. There are too many additive companies making too many similar, yet variant, additives to nail down exactly what additives are being used at the exact percentages in any one product.

Re: Blackstone Lab Help [Re: Pajero] #4508930
09/06/17 09:44 AM
09/06/17 09:44 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,527
St. Charles County, Missouri
csandste Online content
csandste  Online Content
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,527
St. Charles County, Missouri
I've owned close to forty cars and only had one engine failure, a coolant leak that I ignored in the early eighties. I follow this site because it's interesting, but why would paying extra for this make any sense? Most of us are probably OCD on this subject already without forking over still more money.


2017 Kia Soul Plus-- VWB 5-30, 54,000 miles.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™