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HDEO in Tropical Environments #4508089
09/05/17 12:58 PM
09/05/17 12:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline OP
ArcticDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
What HDEO would you choose?

Is there any advantage to running a multi-viscosity HDEO vs a mono-grade in equatorial climates where ambient temperature seldom, if ever, drops below 27*C (80*F) ? For instance, SE Asia and westward through the Gulf and North Africa?

For instance, a product like Shell Helix SAE 40.

Is there an advantage to full synthetic in these conditions?

Thanks


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4508220
09/05/17 04:15 PM
09/05/17 04:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,490
Canada
Lolvoguy Offline
Lolvoguy  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,490
Canada
Rotella


06 Lexus IS350- Wife
88 BMW 325is- Mistress
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4508231
09/05/17 04:29 PM
09/05/17 04:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,795
Florida, Cape Coral
Eddie Offline
Eddie  Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,795
Florida, Cape Coral
I feel there is a great advantage to running a multi grade oil. Since the normal engine operating temp is ~ 200F, then a cold start would be possibly ~ 80F? You want to get oil to all pressure lubricated parts ASAP. Ed


CX5 Touring 2.5L :-)
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4508327
09/05/17 06:36 PM
09/05/17 06:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

Is there an advantage to full synthetic in these conditions?


I don't think so....

Better make sure the oil cooler is up to the task, that's all.

I have seen Rotella 15W-40 last for 700+ hours straight in a large diesel running at 100% rated boost and torque. The exhaust manifold & turbo was glowing red the whole time. Oil temp never went over 240*F, and everything & everyone was happy (except for us poor ba$$tarrds working 100+ hour weeks)


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: Lolvoguy] #4508377
09/05/17 07:35 PM
09/05/17 07:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline OP
ArcticDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy
Rotella


I am not sure how that responds to my questions. Did part of your response get cut off?


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: Linctex] #4508379
09/05/17 07:38 PM
09/05/17 07:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline OP
ArcticDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

Is there an advantage to full synthetic in these conditions?


I don't think so....

Better make sure the oil cooler is up to the task, that's all.

I have seen Rotella 15W-40 last for 700+ hours straight in a large diesel running at 100% rated boost and torque. The exhaust manifold & turbo was glowing red the whole time. Oil temp never went over 240*F, and everything & everyone was happy (except for us poor ba$$tarrds working 100+ hour weeks)


Thanks.

Then let me flip the question around.

Although there does not appear to be a disadvantage to a multi-viscosity, would there be an advantage to a mono-grade SAE 40 or SAE 50 since it would be more shear stable?


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: Eddie] #4508381
09/05/17 07:42 PM
09/05/17 07:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline OP
ArcticDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I feel there is a great advantage to running a multi grade oil. Since the normal engine operating temp is ~ 200F, then a cold start would be possibly ~ 80F? You want to get oil to all pressure lubricated parts ASAP. Ed


Eddie,

OK. I see what you are saying about wanting to get oil to all pressure lubricated parts ASAP but would an ambient temp of 80*F really be too cold for a mono-grade SAE 40 to flow sufficiently? I am not disagreeing with your statement...I honestly don't know the answer.

Would the importance of oil flow at 80*F start up outweigh the importance of shear stability that can be found in a mono-grade SAE 40 over the life of the oil?


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4508392
09/05/17 07:51 PM
09/05/17 07:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,085
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,085
New Jersey
We run 5w-20 in Ford V8s in heavily used work trucks (lugging 8 drums of oil) in a tropical environment, and the engine outlasts the truck. We run Ursa/Delo 15w-40 in the F250.

Ursa is king there - 40 and 15w-40 are used with dell and total products growing share. Elsewhere shell is king.

Keep in mind some large diesels like to idle to temperature before being loaded, then see consistent load for a long time.

Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4508394
09/05/17 07:52 PM
09/05/17 07:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,884
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,884
Upper Midwest
Well first off the flow of the oil is not going to be affected by that temperature, it would only be an issue below the pumpability limit which is way, way below 80 degrees F. Also in another thread SonofJoe commented that shear stability is not often an issue for multi-grade oils. So I don't think that in this instance especially considering the ambient temperatures it is going to make a bit of difference either way.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4503143/Re:_Molybdenum,_Cam_wear_and_H#Post4503143

If it were me, I'd follow whatever the manufacturer recommended or required for that engine and the expected climate conditions.


1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4508437
09/05/17 08:28 PM
09/05/17 08:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,602
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,602
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
What HDEO would you choose?

Is there any advantage to running a multi-viscosity HDEO vs a mono-grade in equatorial climates where ambient temperature seldom, if ever, drops below 27*C (80*F) ? For instance, SE Asia and westward through the Gulf and North Africa?



No

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver


Is there an advantage to full synthetic in these conditions?

Thanks


Is there an advantage to full synthetic in ANY conditions?

If there is, I'd guess it'd include better thermal and oxidative stability, which I'd expect to be potentially more important in hot climates.

Here in Taiwan, it does get down in the ten C range sometimes in the "not summer" requiring me to roll my shirtsleeves down, and Taiwanese to wear fur-collared parkas and put sweatshirts on huskies.

The book straight weight for the ambient temperature range is SAE-30, but I've used 40 in car and motorcycle and it seems ok. At the moment I'm using roughly equal mix of CPC SAE 40 and Mobil Delvac MX 15W40. It seems OK too. Been in about 4 years.

Last edited by Ducked; 09/05/17 08:31 PM.
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: Ducked] #4509267
09/06/17 05:03 PM
09/06/17 05:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
ArcticDriver Offline OP
ArcticDriver  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,139
USA
Originally Posted By: Ducked


Is there an advantage to full synthetic in ANY conditions?



YES.

Originally Posted By: Ducked

If there is, I'd guess it'd include better thermal and oxidative stability, which I'd expect to be potentially more important in hot climates.


Thanks.


Multiple Diesel and Gasoline vehicles
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4509984
09/07/17 01:32 PM
09/07/17 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 164
New York
jeff78 Offline
jeff78  Offline
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 164
New York
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
would an ambient temp of 80*F really be too cold for a mono-grade SAE 40 to flow sufficiently?


That temperature is perfectly fine for SAE 40. The little starter motor in my bike moves VR1 SAE 40 easily in 80F. Also cranks and starts fine at 50F. Haven't tested below that because it doesn't get colder than that in my garage.

Before I started running the VR1 I played around with the numbers from various spec sheets and a viscosity calculator and worked out that the SAE 40 would be no thicker than a typical 20W-50 above freezing. No car or bike with its starter and electrical system in halfway decent shape would have problems cranking and starting a 20W-50 above freezing, so it wouldn't have any issues with SAE 40 either.

As far as shear stability goes, I think how important it is depends on the application. On a car, you'd likely never notice the effects. On a shared sump bike where the oil lubricates the transmission and gear shifting mechanism, the symptoms are pretty obvious and tends to annoy people when it happens.

The VR1 in my bike has 4000 miles on it now. It still shifts like it did when the oil was new.

Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4510771
09/08/17 11:07 AM
09/08/17 11:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,846
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,846
Kalifornia Kollective
OK, so I don't live in the tropics, but I do live where it hardly ever freezes. So I've pondered the question of SAE mono grades and ran a thread about it here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4449306/1

Lots of fluff talk, but some very knowledgeable folks chimed in. Read through and make your own conclusions ... Some folks here have switched to mono grades and are doing well, UOA's and all smile

There are reasons to run Mono's when you don't need cold temp magic chemistry. Mono's are preferred in marine and aviation piston engine systems. No shear stability issues are a big factor. But so is upper cylinder wall protection on start-up. SAE mono grades perform well well in cylinder wall testing for retained film strength in the ring band.

You have absolutely no need of a 15W or even a 20W. SAE 40 is good down to near water freezing temp for cold flow, and you will never get there. If you have good availability of good modern SAE mono grades with MFG recommendations (CAT, Cummins, Mercedes, Volvo, etc.), there is no reason to shy away from them smile

Last edited by BrocLuno; 09/08/17 11:09 AM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: ArcticDriver] #4511483
09/09/17 11:32 AM
09/09/17 11:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
80F is perfectly ok to use SAE 40.

20W-50 is even ok to use at slightly below freezing temps, down to -10C ( +15F ) provided that the owner's manual of the car in question allows oil viscosities more on the heavy side of things.

+1 to what Broc said.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
Re: HDEO in Tropical Environments [Re: Eddie] #4511485
09/09/17 11:33 AM
09/09/17 11:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I feel there is a great advantage to running a multi grade oil. Since the normal engine operating temp is ~ 200F, then a cold start would be possibly ~ 80F? You want to get oil to all pressure lubricated parts ASAP. Ed


Monogrades will flow just fine at 80F.
Even 20W-XX oils are ok down to slightly below freezing.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
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