Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter
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Well, 10W-30 was the default all climate grade in North America for decades.
Engines started and lived to tell about it.
What I'm trying to convey is that you could use a 10W-30 this winter and would likely see no ill effects.
I'm personally not going to and see no real reason to, but you could do so with probably no harm at all.
You might consider running 10Ws during the warmer months and 0 or 5Ws during the winter.
That does seem a little retrograde though, given that multigrades exist largely to eliminate the need for seasonal oil changes.
Engines started and lived to tell about it.
What I'm trying to convey is that you could use a 10W-30 this winter and would likely see no ill effects.
I'm personally not going to and see no real reason to, but you could do so with probably no harm at all.
You might consider running 10Ws during the warmer months and 0 or 5Ws during the winter.
That does seem a little retrograde though, given that multigrades exist largely to eliminate the need for seasonal oil changes.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Because blending gives you more control and ease in achieving your target at a lower price.
If you can find something that meets your target on the shelf already in a can at a price you like then thats good too.
Since the W rating isn't a viscosity how do you know what mixing does to the rating? In other words, you are saying you know what the results would be of the mixing?
For the number after the dash, yes. But you're saying you know what it does to the other number?
If i came across as saying you could blend with a blindfold on, then i am sorry.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Because blending gives you more control and ease in achieving your target at a lower price.
If you can find something that meets your target on the shelf already in a can at a price you like then thats good too.
Since the W rating isn't a viscosity how do you know what mixing does to the rating? In other words, you are saying you know what the results would be of the mixing?
For the number after the dash, yes. But you're saying you know what it does to the other number?
If i came across as saying you could blend with a blindfold on, then i am sorry.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Because blending gives you more control and ease in achieving your target at a lower price.
But it is not safe when trying to fine tune cold cranking characteristics.
Because blending gives you more control and ease in achieving your target at a lower price.
But it is not safe when trying to fine tune cold cranking characteristics.
I have 5 quarts of pp 10w30 and 1 quart of m1 0w20ep in the ford. Only had 1 jug of pp and leftover m1. Sure does crank a lil easier.
But the example given above with pp 10w30 and 5w20 i dont see any problems if by chance there is then i am just as bad as the gm lube dept that is now switching to 5w30 and keep coming up with new standards
But the example given above with pp 10w30 and 5w20 i dont see any problems if by chance there is then i am just as bad as the gm lube dept that is now switching to 5w30 and keep coming up with new standards
It shouldn't be a problem, and likely won't but it could be. If you're trying to optimise for cold starts, it's best to let the formulators handle the issue.
In your current mix, do note that you're also not right now anywhere approaching the limits of MRV. With ambients right now, you're not even coming close to stressing a monograde's starting limits. A thinner lube will crank easier, sure, and adding a 20 to a 30 thins it out. What happens at MRV limits is a little less predictable.
If one is looking for something with shear stability and still being suitable for the winter, there are all kinds of A3/B4, A5/B5, and HDEO options in viscosities including 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, and 5w-40, none of which will compromise cold weather performance.
As I've said many times, if someone sees a problem with an ILSAC 5w-30 conventional (and I'm not convinced there is a problem in most cases), then an ILSAC 10w-30 isn't the solution. Right near the 10w-30 on the Canadian Tire shelf (Saskatchewan Canadian Tires actually have very few 10w-30 synthetics; they've been cleared out and haven't been replaced) are things like M1 0w-40, GC 0w-30 and 0w-40, and Pennzoil Platinum 5w-40 A3/B4.
In your current mix, do note that you're also not right now anywhere approaching the limits of MRV. With ambients right now, you're not even coming close to stressing a monograde's starting limits. A thinner lube will crank easier, sure, and adding a 20 to a 30 thins it out. What happens at MRV limits is a little less predictable.
If one is looking for something with shear stability and still being suitable for the winter, there are all kinds of A3/B4, A5/B5, and HDEO options in viscosities including 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, and 5w-40, none of which will compromise cold weather performance.
As I've said many times, if someone sees a problem with an ILSAC 5w-30 conventional (and I'm not convinced there is a problem in most cases), then an ILSAC 10w-30 isn't the solution. Right near the 10w-30 on the Canadian Tire shelf (Saskatchewan Canadian Tires actually have very few 10w-30 synthetics; they've been cleared out and haven't been replaced) are things like M1 0w-40, GC 0w-30 and 0w-40, and Pennzoil Platinum 5w-40 A3/B4.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
I have 5 quarts of pp 10w30 and 1 quart of m1 0w20ep in the ford. Only had 1 jug of pp and leftover m1. Sure does crank a lil easier.
But the example given above with pp 10w30 and 5w20 i dont see any problems if by chance there is then i am just as bad as the gm lube dept that is now switching to 5w30 and keep coming up with new standards
No, and please don't take it as though I was suggesting there is a problem. I just haven't ever seen a "W" calculator that gave cold cranking performance standards for mixed oils. I always assumed it was more of a function of the specific additives in the oil and as such couldn't be calculated even if you wanted to do so.
For me, if I am starting at temperatures below zero (as I do here in the winter, especially for the BMW) then I buy a 0W oil. If not, then I buy something else. I guess I'm not convinced of the need to mix anything to achieve cold weather performance.
I have 5 quarts of pp 10w30 and 1 quart of m1 0w20ep in the ford. Only had 1 jug of pp and leftover m1. Sure does crank a lil easier.
But the example given above with pp 10w30 and 5w20 i dont see any problems if by chance there is then i am just as bad as the gm lube dept that is now switching to 5w30 and keep coming up with new standards
No, and please don't take it as though I was suggesting there is a problem. I just haven't ever seen a "W" calculator that gave cold cranking performance standards for mixed oils. I always assumed it was more of a function of the specific additives in the oil and as such couldn't be calculated even if you wanted to do so.
For me, if I am starting at temperatures below zero (as I do here in the winter, especially for the BMW) then I buy a 0W oil. If not, then I buy something else. I guess I'm not convinced of the need to mix anything to achieve cold weather performance.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
I have 5 quarts of pp 10w30 and 1 quart of m1 0w20ep in the ford. Only had 1 jug of pp and leftover m1. Sure does crank a lil easier.
But the example given above with pp 10w30 and 5w20 i dont see any problems if by chance there is then i am just as bad as the gm lube dept that is now switching to 5w30 and keep coming up with new standards
But in this instance just be aware that the resulting mix carries no standards. You cannot say for certain it even meets SN, assuming that's what the individual oils all meet.
I have 5 quarts of pp 10w30 and 1 quart of m1 0w20ep in the ford. Only had 1 jug of pp and leftover m1. Sure does crank a lil easier.
But the example given above with pp 10w30 and 5w20 i dont see any problems if by chance there is then i am just as bad as the gm lube dept that is now switching to 5w30 and keep coming up with new standards
But in this instance just be aware that the resulting mix carries no standards. You cannot say for certain it even meets SN, assuming that's what the individual oils all meet.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Pp 10w30 has better noack than pp 5w30 and much better than most 5w30s.
Thats why i said you cannot blend with a blindfold.
I still say 50 50 blend of pp5w20and pp10w30 has better ccs than 100 % pp10w30 even in cold temps.
It very well probably does. But why not use a 5W-30 if that is your goal?
Pp 10w30 has better noack than pp 5w30 and much better than most 5w30s.
Thats why i said you cannot blend with a blindfold.
I still say 50 50 blend of pp5w20and pp10w30 has better ccs than 100 % pp10w30 even in cold temps.
It very well probably does. But why not use a 5W-30 if that is your goal?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Pp 10w30 has better noack than pp 5w30 and much better than most 5w30s.
Thats why i said you cannot blend with a blindfold.
I still say 50 50 blend of pp5w20and pp10w30 has better ccs than 100 % pp10w30 even in cold temps.
It very well probably does. But why not use a 5W-30 if that is your goal?
OP wanted low noack etc if i recall.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Pp 10w30 has better noack than pp 5w30 and much better than most 5w30s.
Thats why i said you cannot blend with a blindfold.
I still say 50 50 blend of pp5w20and pp10w30 has better ccs than 100 % pp10w30 even in cold temps.
It very well probably does. But why not use a 5W-30 if that is your goal?
OP wanted low noack etc if i recall.
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Pp 10w30 has better noack than pp 5w30 and much better than most 5w30s.
Thats why i said you cannot blend with a blindfold.
I still say 50 50 blend of pp5w20and pp10w30 has better ccs than 100 % pp10w30 even in cold temps.
It very well probably does. But why not use a 5W-30 if that is your goal?
OP wanted low noack etc if i recall.
He could pay through the nose for Amsoil SS or M1 ESP 5W30 then...or dig up some of the late, great, Pennzoil Ultra.
Guess it's cheaper and easier to buy the PP 10W30, especially if plugging in is an option on the really cold nights.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Pp 10w30 has better noack than pp 5w30 and much better than most 5w30s.
Thats why i said you cannot blend with a blindfold.
I still say 50 50 blend of pp5w20and pp10w30 has better ccs than 100 % pp10w30 even in cold temps.
It very well probably does. But why not use a 5W-30 if that is your goal?
OP wanted low noack etc if i recall.
He could pay through the nose for Amsoil SS or M1 ESP 5W30 then...or dig up some of the late, great, Pennzoil Ultra.
Guess it's cheaper and easier to buy the PP 10W30, especially if plugging in is an option on the really cold nights.
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Originally Posted By: T-Stick
Unless I'm missing something ... if two pour points are equal between a 0w and a 10w, then this simply means the one is a 0w at start up and the other is a 10w. If flow properties are fine for both in a given temp range, the 10w should offer better protection when driving the car till it is warmed up to operating temp since it is using a thicker viscosity. How much protection does a 0w weight really offer when driving a cold motor?
The number in front of the "w" is not a weight, it is the ability for the oil to pump (MRV) and impact cold start crank speed (CCS). That's why you have 0w-20, 0w-30, 0w-40....etc in progressive order of thickness. They ALL get thicker as the temperature drops, the difference is the point at which they thicken beyond the thresholds for those testing parameters.
Unless I'm missing something ... if two pour points are equal between a 0w and a 10w, then this simply means the one is a 0w at start up and the other is a 10w. If flow properties are fine for both in a given temp range, the 10w should offer better protection when driving the car till it is warmed up to operating temp since it is using a thicker viscosity. How much protection does a 0w weight really offer when driving a cold motor?
The number in front of the "w" is not a weight, it is the ability for the oil to pump (MRV) and impact cold start crank speed (CCS). That's why you have 0w-20, 0w-30, 0w-40....etc in progressive order of thickness. They ALL get thicker as the temperature drops, the difference is the point at which they thicken beyond the thresholds for those testing parameters.
Originally Posted By: T-Stick
Unless I'm missing something ... if two pour points are equal between a 0w and a 10w, then this simply means the one is a 0w at start up and the other is a 10w. If flow properties are fine for both in a given temp range, the 10w should offer better protection when driving the car till it is warmed up to operating temp since it is using a thicker viscosity. How much protection does a 0w weight really offer when driving a cold motor?
All oils are too thick when cold. The 0w will thin to the correct viscosity faster than the 10w.
To the OP question. Try it and see, I think you'll be fine. If you're short tripping I would consider one of the 0w multi-grades for extreme cold
Unless I'm missing something ... if two pour points are equal between a 0w and a 10w, then this simply means the one is a 0w at start up and the other is a 10w. If flow properties are fine for both in a given temp range, the 10w should offer better protection when driving the car till it is warmed up to operating temp since it is using a thicker viscosity. How much protection does a 0w weight really offer when driving a cold motor?
All oils are too thick when cold. The 0w will thin to the correct viscosity faster than the 10w.
To the OP question. Try it and see, I think you'll be fine. If you're short tripping I would consider one of the 0w multi-grades for extreme cold
We've been using primarily full synthetic 10w-30 for the last 10-12 years. Mostly PP & Napa syn. Location : Colorado approx. 6200 ft. We live in the foothills in a large valley and temps in the winter can get extreme. Its not uncommon to hit -10 or lower. The valley helps to create some extreme temps, we have hit -25 3-4 times. Under these conditions we have run numerous vehicles with no issues, including a few high milers up to 212k. I'm not suggesting running a 0w or 5w in the winter wouldn't have benefits, just reporting the results we've had. Good luck.
With image credit to Richard Widman, note that a 10w-XX is required to pass MRV testing at -30. As mentioned, it's obviously not completely unusable in the winter. Some may face some situations where it's problematic, that's all. If someone has access to a heated garage or an oil pan heater, it would never be an issue; then again, a monograde would be suitable, too, in such a situation.
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